CanPol - Alberta edition

[Asher]

Probably, but either way they'll give the Tories a well-deserved kick in the ass.

Anyone who votes for the Tories next election basically admits to being content with inefficient, lazy government.

I'd be happy giving WRA a term just for that reason alone.

[notyoueither]

I don't see another populist protest party as being an answer.

What did the old man say? Something like two or three years ago it was just another snake cult.

[notyoueither]

Have a look at their policies.

http://www.wildrosealliance.ca/pdf/WRAP_Policy_Summary.pdf

Repeal sections of the Human Rights Act. Their specific proposal may be OK, but that is the only thing they say on the topic.

Referenda. They want to import California's cluster****, and on top of it add the power of the notwithstanding clause.

Recall.

These people are Reform repackaged. These are not social liberals.

[notyoueither]

I recall listening to Preston Manning speak on the radio and him explaining how Conservatives are great environmentalists since the root of the word is 'conserve'.



These are the people who are looking to form the next government.

Bwahahahahahahahaha!

*sniff

Oh Lord, take me now.

[Wezil]

Uninterrupted one party rule is not healthy for a democracy.

The 42 year reign of The Big Blue Machine in ON led to a lazy and out of touch government as well until Bill Davis finally self destructed. Looks like Stelmach is on the same path.

[Asher]

I recall listening to Preston Manning speak on the radio and him explaining how Conservatives are great environmentalists since the root of the word is 'conserve'.



These are the people who are looking to form the next government.

Bwahahahahahahahaha!

*sniff

Oh Lord, take me now.

Preston Manning has nothing to do with this party.

As Wezil said, one-party rule is not healthy. The Liberals and NDP in the province are hopelessly pathetic. We need another party similar to the Tories to make them compete for their jobs.

Simple as that.

[notyoueither]

Manning has a lot to do with the party. The base of the party are people from the Reform wing of the provincial Tories.

The Liberals and the NDP are as pathetic as our apathetic lack of participation in the political process allows. Moo.

Don't blame me when the first referendum is to ban gay marriage notwithstanding the Charter of Rights. If social troglodytes could pass that in California, what do you think the chances would be in Alberta?

[Asher]

Not sure you understand how gay marriage became legal in Canada. It's not a political issue, it's a human rights and legal issue.

The provincial government can't even invoke the notwithstanding clause to prevent gay marriage, even though they have threatened to try.

And again, Preston Manning has NOTHING to do with the Wildrose Alliance. In '08 they tried to lure him, but he didn't join them. Stop trying to link the two.

Your fearmongering about gay marriage and your assertions of the link with Preston Manning is unbecoming. Are Tories this scared ****less that they'll sink to these depths?

Simple facts are as follows: The Liberals and NDP will never, ever become elected in Alberta. That's why there's a political apathetic attitude in the province -- there's only one possible victor. The emergence of a second electable party can ONLY be a good thing because now it'll force the Tories -- who will probably still be the dominant party long-term -- to actually compete for their jobs.

[Ben Kenobi]

These people are Reform repackaged. These are not social liberals.

NYE, they are pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage folks. What more do they have to do to be social liberals?

The tories had a chance with Morton to bail out their sinking ship. Now they are toast. Honest Ed is going to take you all down.

[notyoueither]

Not sure you understand how gay marriage became legal in Canada. It's not a political issue, it's a human rights and legal issue.

The provincial government can't even invoke the notwithstanding clause to prevent gay marriage, even though they have threatened to try.

I believe there are areas of provincial jurisdiction where the judicial inclusion of sexual orientation into the Charter of Rights has had some effect.

You need a licence to get married. Licensing is provincial jurisdiction. As are human rights codes dealing with discrimination.

And again, Preston Manning has NOTHING to do with the Wildrose Alliance. In '08 they tried to lure him, but he didn't join them. Stop trying to link the two.

They tried to lure him... what does that tell you? They vehemently disagree with his political positions?

Your fearmongering about gay marriage and your assertions of the link with Preston Manning is unbecoming. Are Tories this scared ****less that they'll sink to these depths?

I haven't voted Tory for several elections provincially or federally, but nice try. You are tardy getting on the need for change bandwagon, and you are choosing poorly.

Simple facts are as follows: The Liberals and NDP will never, ever become elected in Alberta. That's why there's a political apathetic attitude in the province -- there's only one possible victor. The emergence of a second electable party can ONLY be a good thing because now it'll force the Tories -- who will probably still be the dominant party long-term -- to actually compete for their jobs.

Decore came very close. If it were Stelmach he faced instead of Klein he probably would have won. Calgary's mayor, Dave Bronconnier, is often linked with the Liberals and has the standing and experience to do it.

It is the attitude that if it's to the left of Peter Lougheed that it must be bad that is really damaging to the political culture of this province.

[Asher]

I believe there are areas of provincial jurisdiction where the judicial inclusion of sexual orientation into the Charter of Rights has had some effect.

You need a licence to get married. Licensing is provincial jurisdiction. As are human rights codes dealing with discrimination.

No. Alberta tried to fight it, but the lawyers Alberta hired all told them there's no fighting it. This is not a provincial jurisdiction, it's a federal one (even if the licenses themselves are distributed provincially). Klein himself said all legal opinions they sought informed them it'd be a hopeless legal challenge, and the notwithstanding clause was not applicable either. It was going to be a waste of taxpayer money to fight it, so they didn't.

Making this a referendum would change none of that. Alberta already defined marriage as between a man and a woman in 2000 and it didn't do anything. Not their jurisdiction.

They tried to lure him... what does that tell you? They vehemently disagree with his political positions?

So this is what you're now arguing? That because they wanted an established right-wing figurehead for their party they are inexplicably linked with Manning? If the party stood for everything Manning stood for, why would he refuse to be part of it?

There's plenty of evidence that the controlling faction of the Wildrose party are social libertarians (not social liberals -- there's a distinction). Fearmongering on the basis that if they get elected they'll use referendums to squash gay rights is a ridiculously stupid assertion. Not only is it legally impossible to do (as anyone who had a basic understanding of the issue would know), it's at odds with the leadership and ruling faction of the party.

You sound just as ridiculous as the anti-Harper people who talked about his Secret Agenda. He SEEMS fairly moderate for a conservative but as soon as he's elected you know he's going to round up the black people and have them shot or deported to Baltimore.

Decore came very close. If it were Stelmach he faced instead of Klein he probably would have won. Calgary's mayor, Dave Bronconnier, is often linked with the Liberals and has the standing and experience to do it.

Bronconnier has no chance of ever getting elected to Premier, especially if he was part of the Liberals.

He's a massive idiot. Calgary has only a 19% voter turnout for municipal elections. Bronconnier went from 80% support in 2004 to 61% in 2007 and I'm sure it's fallen even farther since then after many fiascos.

[notyoueither]

No. Alberta tried to fight it, but the lawyers Alberta hired all told them there's no fighting it. This is not a provincial jurisdiction, it's a federal one (even if the licenses themselves are distributed provincially). Klein himself said all legal opinions they sought informed them it'd be a hopeless legal challenge, and the notwithstanding clause was not applicable either. It was going to be a waste of taxpayer money to fight it, so they didn't.

Making this a referendum would change none of that. Alberta already defined marriage as between a man and a woman in 2000 and it didn't do anything. Not their jurisdiction.

Actually... there has been more than one issue where judicial opinion forced sexual orientation into human rights and are provincial jurisdiction. Employment discrimination, same sex marriages performed by JPs. I think there may have been others, but those are off the top of my head.

As for Ralph accepting legal opinion that there is nothing Alberta can do regarding the issue of marriage, I am sure he was pleased to do so. It wouldn't have been something he was personally in favour of (I think) and it was devisive within his own caucus. The point is that there are a large number of socially right wing Albertans who wanted him to try. Assuming WRA enact their policy on referenda, these people will have a green light, and I for one will not enjoy reading in the Globe and Mail about what the local loony tunes branch in Alberta is up to.

So this is what you're now arguing? That because they wanted an established right-wing figurehead for their party they are inexplicably linked with Manning? If the party stood for everything Manning stood for, why would he refuse to be part of it?

Actually, I pointed out that these are people of Manning's ilk. It was you who contested the point, which is pretty absurd since you knew they tried to recruit him.

There's plenty of evidence that the controlling faction of the Wildrose party are social libertarians (not social liberals -- there's a distinction). Fearmongering on the basis that if they get elected they'll use referendums to squash gay rights is a ridiculously stupid assertion. Not only is it legally impossible to do (as anyone who had a basic understanding of the issue would know), it's at odds with the leadership and ruling faction of the party.

One more time. It isn't what Smith would do with referenda. It's what the Freinds of Ben will try to do, as well as the people who will want to vote for more services and less taxes (also a feature of California politics).

The idea of 'binding referenda' is simply stupid, for a lot of reasons.

You sound just as ridiculous as the anti-Harper people who talked about his Secret Agenda. He SEEMS fairly moderate for a conservative but as soon as he's elected you know he's going to round up the black people and have them shot or deported to Baltimore.

Actually, I am pointing out that many of the people in WRA are the people Harper had to leave behind in order to stand a chance of forming a government.

Yes, Smith sounds reasonable, sort of. Although maybe not if you are a young woman who may need an abortion and may find that it is no longer covered by Alberta Health.

The problem isn't Smith, largely. It's the band of cretins that'll be standing behind her when they take the picture of the new cabinet.

[notyoueither]

Bottom line. I think going to the right of the Tories to find our alternative for a government is... a really bad idea.

[Asher]

I'm not convinced the Wildrose is really to the right. In a lot of ways they're the same thing, but more reasonable.

[Asher]

One more time. It isn't what Smith would do with referenda. It's what the Freinds of Ben will try to do, as well as the people who will want to vote for more services and less taxes (also a feature of California politics).

If you haven't already noticed, Ben and Friends are terrified of Wildrose and are big Tory supporters.

Actually, I am pointing out that many of the people in WRA are the people Harper had to leave behind in order to stand a chance of forming a government.

Yes, Smith sounds reasonable, sort of. Although maybe not if you are a young woman who may need an abortion and may find that it is no longer covered by Alberta Health.

The problem isn't Smith, largely. It's the band of cretins that'll be standing behind her when they take the picture of the new cabinet.

I'd take Smith over Stelmach any day. I'm also very, very much aware of the bands of cretins standing behind Stelmach, who himself is a cretin. Your picture of the Wildrose party being a bunch of crazies hiding behind a reasonable leader is absurd given that the Tories are a bunch of crazies hiding behind a bland crazy.