The Day Before 9-11

[Ben Kenobi]

And as you can see in some videos, the collapse of the upper floors was not symmetrical. You see them totter to the side (likely due to the airplane impact taking out structural columns on some floors), yet the failure of everything below was symmetrical. Another unexplained anomaly

How is it an anomaly? The force of the plane into the building is much less than the force of gravity pulling on the building, and each of the floors. As for fire causing total destruction, are you aware of the conditions in WTC2 and WTC1? In WTC1, the building which stood up the longest, the plane managed to crush 3 stairwells, on all sides of the building. We know this because there are 0 survivors above the point of impact on WTC1, and we have testimony from those who were caught above that the stairwells were impassable. On WTC2, the plane's impact took out 2 stairwells, while the stairwell farthest from the point of impact held together, enough so that some people who were above the point of impact, managed to escape. If the plane hit with sufficient force to destroy all three stairwells, then it's reasonable to conclude that the impact weakened the support pillars significantly, prior to the fire. Then when the fire ignites, it doesn't just burn plane, it burns everything, and weakens the steel. Fire + Impact + 40 floors of weight above plane = total structural failure after more than an hour.

Edit, Che covered the 'free fall'. The pillers and lower floors provide some resistance but insufficient to prevent the total collapse of the building.

[HalfLotus]

It's the basis of their whole economic structure. You can't ask them to stop, without offering a viable alternative.

Under the Taliban, it was a very small fraction of their economy. They had almost entirely stopped production, because Muslims don't like drugs.

Westerners however, very much like drugs, and the CIA likes making money off them.

I'm not suggesting that the Taliban provided better leadership, but it was not anything like asking them to stop "the basis of their whole economic structure".

As for Ben Kenobi, I've been over all that. The point you're failing to account for, as many others are, is free-fall collapse. Read above where I've discussed that.

And since you mention witnesses, check out the witnesses who observed massive explosions on lower floors consistent with demolition charges.

[Ben Kenobi]

And since you mention witnesses, check out the witnesses who observed massive explosions on lower floors consistent with demolition charges.

That's not what we saw when the towers collapsed. They did not fall from the base but from the top down. Witnesses may have observed explosions, but did they witness sabotage? There are plenty of things that could cause explosions in a building after a plane full of gas is rammed into one.

[HalfLotus]

In order for a building to collpse at free-fall speed, such as WTC 7 did, it has to collapse from the bottom up. The is consistent with witness testimony that described time-delay explosions from the lower floors.

[Stuie]

I joined poly a week before 9/11. Conspiracy or coincidence?

[Ben Kenobi]

In order for a building to collpse at free-fall speed

such as WTC 7 did

Ahh, so you concede that there were no controlled demolition in WTC1 or WTC2?

The is consistent with witness testimony that described time-delay explosions from the lower floors.

WT7 was destroyed by fires.

[Patroklos]

[quote]Afghanistan is home to critical gas pipelines and is the world's number one supplier of opium, output of which has skyrocketed since US invasion. It is an important piece on the chessboard.[/quot]

1.) Afghanistan is home to no such pipelines and 2.) what the hell would we do with opium???

[HalfLotus]

[QUOTE=Patroklos;5688322]

Afghanistan is home to critical gas pipelines and is the world's number one supplier of opium, output of which has skyrocketed since US invasion. It is an important piece on the chessboard.[/quot]

1.) Afghanistan is home to no such pipelines and 2.) what the hell would we do with opium???

1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Afghanistan_Pipeline

I should have said pipeline routes: "Since the United States military overthrew the Taliban government, the project has essentially stalled" The pipeline would benefit Afghanistan, Pakistan and other countries, but the United States wants none of that.

2) Make heroin and sell it.

[Patroklos]

Why exactly do we not want a stable and prosperous Pakistan, and how the hell is a pie in the sky pipeline project with no hope of ever being completed regardless of US invasion classified as "critical?"

Wait wait wait. Now the US is going to become a global marketer of heroin? Please, for our entertainment solely, elaborate.

[Berzerker]

Afghanistan is home to critical gas pipelines and is the world's number one supplier of opium, output of which has skyrocketed since US invasion. It is an important piece on the chessboard.

nah, they'll pipe around the region

Under the Taliban, it was a very small fraction of their economy. They had almost entirely stopped production, because Muslims don't like drugs.

yeah, like the US is anti drug We're human before Muslim and if it feels good, it feeeeels gooood

And since you mention witnesses, check out the witnesses who observed massive explosions on lower floors consistent with demolition charges.

I heard about that, and I'm thinking lower floors were under pressure with each shock wave from the pancakes becoming pancakes sending another jolt through the infrastructure. And I could buy into that if there was actual film of a lower floor giving way before the avalanche of debris. I just never saw it, if demolition was involved I'd expect to see lower floors giving way before that top down procession. Have you seen such footage?

[HalfLotus]

Why exactly do we not want a stable and prosperous Pakistan, and how the hell is a pie in the sky pipeline project with no hope of ever being completed regardless of US invasion classified as "critical?"

Wait wait wait. Now the US is going to become a global marketer of heroin? Please, for our entertainment solely, elaborate.

You're not going to believe any of this, but your innocent naivete is endearing, so I'll share my views.

The "powers the be" don't want stability or prosperity for any country. Perhaps you hhave noticed the economic and social upheavels of the 20th and 21st centuries? It's not an accident.

In fact they don't like countries themselves very much. National sovereignty will continue to erode around the world, and be replaced by supranational governments. Some say it's a good thing, I strongly disagree.

They prefer the peons be in a state of confusion and uncertainly, all the better for manipulating them and taking what little wealth they still have. It's a social engineering thing, check it out.

You're saying the pipeline would never have been created, which is pure speculation. Agreements had been signed, and several countries stood to benefit. I call it 'critical' because it would be a boon to some very crummy economies, namely Afghanistan and Pakistan.

And again guys, the term 'US government' is too broad and vague a term for serious discussions about nearly any topic. There is substantial evidence that the CIA and other intelligence agencies are involved in the drug trade, and the money goes to fund some pretty unpleasant activities.

A quick Google turns up this:

CIA Plane Crashes in Yucatan Carrying 3.2 Tons of Cocaine

[HalfLotus]

I heard about that, and I'm thinking lower floors were under pressure with each shock wave from the pancakes becoming pancakes sending another jolt through the infrastructure. And I could buy into that if there was actual film of a lower floor giving way before the avalanche of debris. I just never saw it, if demolition was involved I'd expect to see lower floors giving way before that top down procession. Have you seen such footage?

Well there are literally hundreds of controlled demolition videos on the web, so we don't have to speculate what it would look like.

If you compare those to the collapse of WTC 7, they are nearly identical.

We do have to speculate a great deal about fire induced collapses, since they have never occurred prior to or since 9/11.

Also consider the existence of thermite, a demolition compound, found at ground zero.

[Flubber]

at this thread

HL while I have no doubt that the CIA will peddle drugs or kill people or lie or cheat or whatever in the pursuit of certain intelligence matters, you seem to think that there is some mysterious world group out there with its own agenda and the ability to control large portions of government and the media. This group had the power to get the co-operation of some terrorists and what a couple of hunderd Americans and get them to agree to blow up Americans? Oh and as someone pointed out-- blow up the largely righty Americans in NYC corporate building--- wouldn't blowing up nthe Californian state legislature have accomplished even MORE of their goals?


Ok carry on-- I wait with bated breath for your explanations.

[Darius871]

If you need to be educated on mass psychology, I'll help. Your viewpoint on mass media is rather naive, so you probably do.

Have you not yet picked up on what Ming does for a living? That's like telling KH he needs you to educate him on quantum mechanics.

Besides, I thought you said your "expertise is in Structural Computer Modeling (going on 20+ years now)" - now you're going to educate us on mass psychology and media affairs too? I wish I could be such a jack of all trades...

[Ben Kenobi]

If you compare those to the collapse of WTC 7, they are nearly identical.

Except for the fact that WTC 7 was on fire for 4 hours prior to collapse.

We do have to speculate a great deal about fire induced collapses, since they have never occurred prior to or since 9/11.

Are you serious? Buildings that catch fire fall down. Happened here right in my town not too long ago. Old hotel caught fire, and by the time they put the fire out the building collapsed. Was there some kind of 'conspiracy' to detonate the building in my town?