Teen sex and other interesting subjects (from the pro-lifer murdered thread)

[SpencerH]

Well, the non-scientists you'd be discussing the evidence with are at the CDC, AAP, WHO, DHHS, the New England Journal of Medicine, and the American Journal of Public Health, so take it up with them if you've got an issue.

You wont pull me in that easily!

It was assumptions in the OP, not the articles that were bogus. As for discussing STD's with other scientists and physicians, I have done so in the past and likely will do so again since its one of the research areas in which I've published.

[Lorizael]

Well, as long as you didn't try to convince said scientists and physicians that condoms don't prevent pregnancy, I'm sure each of those conversations was a wonderfully edifying experience.

[SpencerH]

Set up more strawmen if it makes you happy; you seem fond of tilting at them. It doesnt change that your OP is full of over-interpretations and misinterpretations of the data. Even BK has pointed some out to you.

[Lorizael]

BK's the one who claimed condoms don't work. You've yet to show such ignorance of reality.

While my OP may contain misinterpretations (I compiled the information haphazardly over a day while working), I would contend that my fundamental theory is correct: Comprehensive sex education has been at least somewhat effective in accomplishing its goals.

If you'd like to argue otherwise (as BK has done), I'm probably not going to listen to you, because it means you're completely failing to acknowledge reality. BK and other extremists don't understand that you can give up an inch without giving up the whole nine yards (mixed metaphors ftw!), and so they refuse to accept even a tiny bit of evidence that is contrary to their beliefs systems.

[Krill]

I was gonna discuss the scientific evidence (and lack of it) in the OP but thankfully remembered my vow to not discuss science on the web with non-scientists.

Post and I promise to reply.

[Monk]

I agree with Ben that abstaining from sex is a 100% sure way to avoid pregnancy.

Sure. Disregarding a woman's very slim risk of being raped, every sane person agrees abstinence (when it's actually accomplished) is bullet-proof when it comes to avoiding that risk.

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What annoys me though is the lack of consequent thought here. Being a fairly healthy dude in my mid-twenties, the most likely way to die before I get much older would probably be something like a car accident.

It hardly makes us avoid cars altogether. It just makes us take a few precautions, like wearing seatbelts, driving safer cars if possible, or thinking twice before accepting a ride from a drunk driver. I can't see why the same wouldn't apply to sex.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben accepts that people are weak and might fail in their absintence pledge, so make sure that if that does happen they have the essential information about, pregnancy, STDs, contraception etc that they need. Simple.

The problem is this approach just doesn't work. Rather then giving kids the tools to help keep their pledges, you are giving them the means to fail, as if it was assumed that they were going to fail, so why bother keeping it?

Personally, I got that information, and quite early besides, which was one of the reasons I made the decision that I did. I wasn't a Christian at the time, it just made sense. But I didn't get that at school. I mean, we did that basically when I was 9 or so, and so what they had in schools wasn't all that useful or informative.

[Monk]

The problem is this approach just doesn't work. Rather then giving kids the tools to help keep their pledges, you are giving them the means to fail, as if it was assumed that they were going to fail, so why bother keeping it?

You're honestly saying that giving kids information about how to avoid STD's or pregnancy can be a bad thing?

Either how, once they've reached a certain age, it's legally and morally up to the kids themselves whether they want to take this pledge (what a terrible word to use!) seriously, and no responsible parent should assume with certainty that his child is going to follow through with whatever was declared at the age of 14 or 16 or whatever.

And hey, it didn't hurt you, right?

[Monk]

PS: What exactly are 'the tools to help them follow their pledges'? You're hopefully talking about more than cold showers and relevant Bible passages.

[Ben Kenobi]

And hey, it didn't hurt you, right?

I got both together. I wasn't too impressed by the sex ed in the classroom.

What exactly are 'the tools to help them follow their pledges'?

Lots of stuff for dealing with peer pressure that sort of thing. "True love waits", etc.

[Monk]

Lots of stuff for dealing with peer pressure that sort of thing. "True love waits", etc.

Um, maybe you should just accept it's up to the dudes and dudettes themselves?

Either how, you somehow missed the other question where I was asking you if you're sincerely saying that it's bad or potentially bad to provide the (allegedly) chaste youth with information about how you avoid diseases or pregnancies, in case the situation occurs anyway.

[Ben Kenobi]

Um, maybe you should just accept it's up to the dudes and dudettes themselves?

See, right there. You asked, I told you what I was referring to. I think it's helpful for everyone. All it is, is just learning to say no.

Either how, you somehow missed the other question where I was asking you if you're sincerely saying that it's bad or potentially bad to provide the (allegedly) chaste youth with information about how you avoid diseases or pregnancies, in case the situation occurs anyway.

It totally depends on the class. Handing out condoms 'because you are just going to do it anyways, and you need to have protection' will not work. Harm reduction won't work either for the same reason.

If you were truly informative, and told students, here are the transmission rates for each STD, etc. Here's what the consequences and the treatment for these STDs. I know I didn't get those in public school at all. All we got was the standard AIDS lecture because everyone was afraid of AIDS. We never were told the specific risk factors for AIDS including buttsecks, etc. Would have been nice to know that but heaven forbid that they actually truly inform us. I'm ok with the information, provided it is explained in such a way so that students understand the consequences. I'm also ok with it if they go on to explain about abstinence rather than the 100 percent vs 99 percent argument, which I always thought was funny.

Everything should be self-consistant, I don't think you can teach abstinence and then teach about condoms and have any hope of being credible with both.

[Monk]

If you were truly informative, and told students, here are the transmission rates for each STD, etc. Here's what the consequences and the treatment for these STDs.

Um, that's not the main thing I had in mind, I'll rephrase my question:

Is there any double standard and/or any practical problem in that a boy (or a girl for that matter) knows roughly how to use a condom if need be, even if they have taken the 'pledge' (again, what a horrible, horrible term).

[Nikolai]

Um, that's not the main thing I had in mind, I'll rephrase my question:

Is there any double standard and/or any practical problem in that a boy (or a girl for that matter) knows roughly how to use a condom if need be, even if they have taken the 'pledge' (again, what a horrible, horrible term).

No.

[Nikolai]

Sure. Disregarding a woman's very slim risk of being raped, every sane person agrees abstinence (when it's actually accomplished) is bullet-proof when it comes to avoiding that risk.

---

What annoys me though is the lack of consequent thought here. Being a fairly healthy dude in my mid-twenties, the most likely way to die before I get much older would probably be something like a car accident.

It hardly makes us avoid cars altogether. It just makes us take a few precautions, like wearing seatbelts, driving safer cars if possible, or thinking twice before accepting a ride from a drunk driver. I can't see why the same wouldn't apply to sex.

The difference is of course of a religious nature. We Christians believe in God's word, and you know what it tells us. Nothing about cars or such there. We believe God has commanded us so for a reason, for our best. For those not believers, it can't be expected to be understood.