CanPol - Fall election: Do we have an issue yet?

[Flubber]

And seriously? How ****ing stupid are Newfs?



Should we begin rejecting Newfs in favour of more intelligent Mexicans?

Only if all former newfs get banished to a Carribean country to lie on the beach all day.

[Ben Kenobi]

There are approximately 340,000 live births in Canada. If even 1 in 1,000 of pregnancies had complications that occurred in the last trimester of the pregnancy that would basically explain all abortions occurring in the last trimester.

The question is severity. I'm not convinced that after the 20th week you cannot attempt an emergency c-section. Sure there are plenty of complications, but how many of them are a serious risk to the life of the mother?

I don't really know exactly what complication would cause that. I'm not a medical professional. I think it is absurd to suggest that there are no complications that can occur in the third trimester.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying there aren't any complications for which an emergency c-section cannot save the life of the mother and the baby once the baby is viable.

Besides that, you are equivocating. Like I said in my edits to that post, the 700 number doesn't really matter except to establish that abortions in the third trimester are extremely rare. What I was originally responding to was your statement that "Abortions in Canada are legal up to the 9th month." Which, as I said, doesn't really matter, because if an abortion occurs close to the 9th month, it is extremely rare.

I'm saying they aren't really rare, if they would double our homicide rate. You say it's rare when looking at an extremely common event, pregnancy, and I'm showing that they are not all that rare at all when looking at homocides.

I question the validity of that poll.

It was done by environics.

This poll suggests that 49% of Canadians believe "abortion should be legal under all circumstances." In the younger demographic, it goes to 56%. Of people who are university educated, it jumps to 66%. These are the people that will become politically active, and will be influencing votes.

Interesting. So you believe that the pov of those who have a university degree is more valuable than those who don't have one? Here's my point. That survey does not ask the question we are debating here. What percent of the population would approve of abortion only after 3 months? Even so, you have nearly 50 percent saying that they want to either outright ban abortion, or only allow abortion in the case of rape or incest. That's a stronger position than the one I've presented here.

[Ben Kenobi]

Are you really so dense you cannot see it.

1.An ad showing some impoverished teen who is completely unable to get an abortion due to cutting the funding. "Harpers choice is no choice at all"

Why not show an ad where that same impoverished teen simply goes to the crisis pregnancy centre and they help her with all the essentials. What would you choose, paying for the abortion, or helping the mom have the baby? I know which one I want my money for.

You see, so long as there is taxpayer funded abortion, all Canadians who pay taxes are complicit in abortion. This is why there is so much opposition. I shouldn't have to pay for someone else's choice, and neither should they have to pay for mine.

2. An ad talking about a woman's doctor not having the authority to perform an abortion after 12 weeks even if her health is in jeopardy-- I assume your rules couldn't leave the decision to an individual doctor after all.

The problem with the health exemption is that it is completely useless. It has been interpreted in the past to mean anything, including emotional health is grounds for an abortion. I would approve of an exemption for the life of the mother, but not a generic 'health' exemption. I notice you use health instead of saying, 'where the life of the mother is in danger.

Are not all three of these things very possible? Tell me what your abortion rules would be, in a way that can clearly be conveyed in a 30 second ad, that refutes all three of these-- Or just one message/theme for each. Remeber it has to be short and easily understood. I can convey the above three scenarios in 30 seconds-- can you refute them as quickly?

Well the coathanger and back alley abortions are not an issue. Let's look at Quebec where Morgentaler's clinics are balking at upholding the same medical standards that apply to surgical conditions at any other medical clinic. Here's the truth. Legal abortions done in a clinic are less sanitary and safe than they were back before abortion was legal. If clinics sincerely cared about the woman who come to them for an abortion, they would ensure that their clinics were clean and well-run and would not be complaining about upholding the same standards that apply to all other medical clinics.

Those would be my ads right there.

1. Young teenager worried about keeping a baby, going to the crisis pregnancy centre who offer to help her out with the essentials.

Caption comes down, which would you rather pay for? 500 dollars for the abortion, or 500 dollars to help her raise the baby? It's your choice.

2. You have a woman going in for her 5th or 6th abortion. Doctor is going down the checklist of reasons. Finally he gets to one that says, "are you emotionally stable?" She rattles off, "this pregnancy is so hard doc, I don't know how I can possibly raise this kiddo." Doc says, great. I can say that you need this abortion because your mental stability is not good. She goes and has the abortion.

3. Back alley abortions.

Have an ad that pans through a random clinic in Quebec. "Abortion clinics in Quebec refused to abide by the same standards as all other clinics". Is this the care that we are all paying for?

[Ben Kenobi]

errr the death of a fetus? I haven't been tracking your fight on the numbers closely at all and I do have a question-- Do your numbers track how many of the "abortions" were of a live fetus? I am just wondering if your stats differentiate between an abortion and a miscarriage (in which the very same d and c procedure is performed)

Yes, the statistics distinguish between miscarriage and abortion. It's a good question, they come out in two different categories in the MSP.

[Wezil]

London North Centre, Ajax?

Rural?

Oh, **** it.

Not surprisingly (considering the source) these are not rural ridings. I'm next door to the London North Centre riding (includes the University of Western Ontario) and it is most definitely urban.

Similarly, Ajax is urban. It is sandwiched between Oshawa and Toronto.

Ben is just being Ben.

[Ben Kenobi]

Compared to the rest of the Toronto ridings?

[Asher]

Not surprisingly (considering the source) these are not rural ridings. I'm next door to the London North Centre riding (includes the University of Western Ontario) and it is most definitely urban.

Similarly, Ajax is urban. It is sandwiched between Oshawa and Toronto.

Ben is just being Ben.

Yes. Ben is just displaying his profound ignorance of both Canada's geography in addition to Canada's political landscape.

I'm surprised he's even entertaining the notion that Canada has elections, what with it being a totalitarian state and all.

[Ben Kenobi]

So in a free country men have to fight a court case for 6 years for 'hate speech' someone else posted on their forum?

Seriously?

I'm glad he was finally vindicated, but he never should have been prosecuted in the first place.

[Wezil]

Compared to the rest of the Toronto ridings?

First off, London is not a Toronto riding in any way shape or form. They are 200km apart for **** sakes.

Secondly, it appears you are saying unless you are a Toronto riding you are "rural"? Don't be daft. Plenty of cities besides Toronto in Ontario Ben.

London Centre North: 115,000 pop in 64 sq km. Yep. Cows and hayseeds aplenty.

[Ben Kenobi]

First off, London is not a Toronto riding in any way shape or form. They are 200km apart for **** sakes.

I was referring to Ajax, but good for you assuming that I'm a total idiot.

Secondly, it appears you are saying unless you are a Toronto riding you are "rural"? Don't be daft. Plenty of cities besides Toronto in Ontario Ben.

London Centre North: 115,000 pop in 64 sq km. Yep. Cows and hayseeds aplenty.

I live in a city of 75 thousand, in roughly the same area. We voted 60+ percent conservative. What's so special about London?

[Wezil]

Ajax: A little smaller at 100,000 pop with 409/ sq km.

Still not rural Ben.

[Wezil]

I was referring to Ajax, but good for you assuming that I'm a total idiot.

I'm trained to follow the evidence.

I live in a city of 75 thousand, in roughly the same area. We voted 60+ percent conservative. What's so special about London?

Aside from the fact is most certainly isn't rural?


Btw, London is actually 350,000 or so. We are only talking about London North Centre, one of 4-6 ridings for the City/County (I'm in London Fanshaw).

[Wezil]

Holy ****!

Now that I actually read the names on your list I see you have my riding listed!! WTF? "rural"?

[Ben Kenobi]

Btw, London is actually 350,000 or so. We are only talking about London North Centre, one of 4-6 ridings for the City/County (I'm in London Fanshaw).

Ok, that makes sense. All I did was look at each of the sections of the country for outliers that are either suburban/rural. I never said that the Conservative party should only target rural areas. That's why I came across Ajax which is a heck of alot more suburban than Toronto proper.

[Wezil]

Of the Ontario ridings you listed -

Sault Ste Marie - no
Guelph - no
London Fanshawe - no
London North Centre - no
Welland - no
Ajax-Pickering - no
Kingston and the Islands - no