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CanPol - Fall election: Do we have an issue yet?

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  • CanPol - Fall election: Do we have an issue yet?

    Michael Ignatieff's Liberals are stepping up their election readiness, preparing attack ads against the Harper Conservatives and discussing two dates in November as the most likely scenario for a vote.

    The Liberal Leader has already posed for campaign pictures at his official residence, Stornoway. And as many as 40 candidates out of a possible 75 in Quebec will be nominated by Labour Day.

    Senator David Smith, one of the co-chairs of the national campaign, says the Liberals are in “good shape” in the rest of Canada as well with the bulk of the 233 other candidates ready to go by mid-September.

    In an interview that appeared yesterday in the French-language newspaper Le Devoir, Mr. Ignatieff said he is “reflecting on when to call an election.”

    The shift in Liberal focus comes amid criticism from political observers of Mr. Ignatieff's lost summer – one that some believe he has squandered, failing to tell Canadians why the Harper government should be defeated and what he would do if he were prime minister.

    Many Liberals were in momentary disbelief yesterday after the weekend release of a devastating national opinion poll that showed the Conservatives with an 11-point lead over the Liberals.

    But there was deep skepticism around the poll. Even Harper Tories questioned it, sending out “talking points” to their MPs, noting the poll is not consistent with other polling. A Canadian Press Harris-Decima poll released yesterday afternoon put the two parties in a statistical tie, where they have been all summer.

    Mr. Ignatieff is in the Northwest Territories this week where he plans to take some holidays in advance of meeting his caucus in Sudbury for its annual summer retreat next week. MPs and senators will be briefed on election readiness and national poll numbers at that time.

    Liberal House Leader Ralph Goodale said several issues will inform Mr. Ignatieff's decision on whether to try to bring down the government, chief among them: determining what progress has been made on the key Liberal issue of reforming employment insurance, the overall state of the fiscal framework and whether the government has moved beyond “photo opportunities and re-announcements of old news” when it comes to infrastructure.

    It will take all three opposition parties to defeat the government. And the Liberals will have their first opportunity to bring in a no-confidence motion in late September or early October. If successful, it would trigger an election around the dates in November that are being discussed, Nov. 9 and Nov. 16.

    As for a Liberal campaign plane, Mr. Smith was more circumspect, saying that was “under control.” The Liberals had difficulty in the last election securing a plane. Mr. Smith said the recession, which has led to fewer people flying, has given the Liberals more options.

    Darrell Bricker, the Ipsos-Reid pollster who conducted the poll showing the huge Tory lead, defended his numbers yesterday, saying the Liberals are lacking momentum, in part because Mr. Ignatieff is a “cipher.” Canadians don't know him or his policies.

    But Albina Guarnieri, a senior Ontario Liberal MP who chairs Mr. Ignatieff's early-morning strategy group when the House is sitting, says the summer really isn't the time to do that. No one is really paying attention.

    She says Mr. Ignatieff will begin soon to “showcase his ideas and he'll make his case.”

    Liberals defend Mr. Ignatieff, saying he has been touring the country, meeting the grassroots. As well, he did not take his usual holiday in Europe, spending time instead in Ottawa in July, working on his speeches and his platform.

    “It's notoriously tough for opposition parties to get much national ink (especially in the summer). Where Michael has been coverage has been positive and response has been good,” said Toronto Liberal MP Bob Rae. “Things will come together in Sudbury, and parliamentary life will get refocused at end of September. … Then we'll see.”




    While I'd personally be happy with a chance to turf Harper I can't say I'm impressed with Iggy thus far. It's hard to believe he can ride to EI issue to a victory.
    "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
    "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

  • #2
    There's no issue yet. An election would be a huge waste of money, so that is to say it'll happen early and often.
    "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
    Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

    Comment


    • #3
      He seems intent on toppling the government this fall, issue or not.

      EI will work well in ON where the Libs hope to do better (and where the unfairness of the current EI is most apparent) but I just don't see a groundswell of support for the Party b/c of it. The issue only affects about 10% of the population.

      I understand the Libs not wanting to release a full platform this far out from the vote but we are left with the image of a Party that wants an election even if there isn't a reason for it. That can't bode well for them.
      "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
      "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

      Comment


      • #4
        I think the Bloq will want to wait and give Iggy a chance to self-destruct in Quebec.
        (\__/)
        (='.'=)
        (")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.

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        • #5
          Well, I'm in Goodale's riding so if there was an election, I may as well eat my ballot for all the difference my vote would make.

          I don't think there should be an election yet. We've had too many elections in too short a period of time, and it is making the country look ridiculous.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by ShaneWalter View Post
            Well, I'm in Goodale's riding so if there was an election, I may as well eat my ballot for all the difference my vote would make.

            .
            I live in Calgary so ditto

            Originally posted by ShaneWalter View Post
            I don't think there should be an election yet. We've had too many elections in too short a period of time, and it is making the country look ridiculous.
            I don't see a dividing issue that would make a rats ass difference in the results.
            EI ?? I don't see the Liberals gaining a ton of seats on that . There are lots of people out there that have never availed of it "no matter what" and who aren't exactly going to embrace making getting EI easier
            You don't get to 300 losses without being a pretty exceptional goaltender.-- Ben Kenobi speaking of Roberto Luongo

            Comment


            • #7
              EI is a regional issue Flubber. Use it or not, people in ON can see how unbalanced and unfair the current system is. Our manufacturing base in southern ON is getting hammered and it adds insult to injury when east coast fisherman can qualify for EI after a few weeks work and line workers don't. I agree it is not a winning issue but it goes a little deeper than just the users of the system.

              The imbalance was actually brought in under the Liberals. Go figure.
              "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
              "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Wezil View Post
                EI is a regional issue Flubber.
                I'm a Newfoundlander living in Calgary. Do you really think I am unaware of the regional nature of unemployment insurance?

                Originally posted by Wezil View Post
                Use it or not, people in ON can see how unbalanced and unfair the current system is.
                Ya its so unbalanced and fair that the current system has existed for many years without much comment. On its face its actually not that unfair. People in areas of higher unemployment get a better deal on the theory that on average it would take them longer to find new employment or it would be tougher to find as much employment to qualify. (oh and I'm not defending EI, there is much about the whole program that I hate-- I am just saying that the unfairness is not THAT obvious)

                Originally posted by Wezil View Post
                Our manufacturing base in southern ON is getting hammered and it adds insult to injury when east coast fisherman can qualify for EI after a few weeks work and line workers don't. I agree it is not a winning issue but it goes a little deeper than just the users of the system.
                It does go deeper that simply users of the system. (Oh and don't get me started about the many fisherman that are pros at using and abusing the EI system). But a fix of making EI as easy as some of the easiest groups to qualify just doesn't resonate and if the idea is to make qualification and benefits homogenous, then you have to go at the easiest/best level for ALL

                or, you have to make the situation a little worse for some people do you not?

                Oh and car workers in particular are not that sympathetic. I know that many people outside Ontario and some inside as well would view them as long overpaid with greedy unions that led to the uncompetitiveness of their employers and ultimately their own downfall. I know that is only one sector of the hard hit manufacturing but it is a major one.

                Originally posted by Wezil View Post

                The imbalance was actually brought in under the Liberals. Go figure.
                I always love it when so many of the "worst things" the Cons are "doing" were actually created and refined under the liberals. It was the same when the Liberals were being criticized in the post Mulrooney years by the Conservatives (all 2 of them LOL). It seems as soon as a party goes in opposition the policies that they implemented become repugnant.




                Sorry but changing an EI policy that isn't at all new, wasn't created by the Conservatives and which won't materially change the results (Iggy as leader will have a bigger impact) doesn't hit me as a reason to kill the government. yet Iggy probably feels he needs some issue since calling an election simply because he might win might and probably will result in a voter backlash from an electorate that is frankly sick of elections.

                The recession seems to be ending in Canada and if the job numbers start to show improvement ( I know there can be a significant lag on that ), the "emergency" need to reform EI won't be as apparent.

                Personally I just don't want an election un ess there is some major defining issue or some chance of a materially changed result. Minority governments seem to be something we may be faced with for a while and I think the parties have to learn to run the country in that scenario
                You don't get to 300 losses without being a pretty exceptional goaltender.-- Ben Kenobi speaking of Roberto Luongo

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Flubber View Post
                  I'm a Newfoundlander living in Calgary. Do you really think I am unaware of the regional nature of unemployment insurance?
                  I think you misunderstand me. This is a politically regional issue this time out. The battleground will be in ON (particularly southern ON) yet again as "the West" will most certainly return C's and the BQ is liable to do well again in QC. The seats to be won and lost will be in the hard hit manufacturing centres of southern ON. The exceptionally high unemployment numbers in these places are a recent development.


                  Ya its so unbalanced and fair that the current system has existed for many years without much comment. On its face its actually not that unfair. People in areas of higher unemployment get a better deal on the theory that on average it would take them longer to find new employment or it would be tougher to find as much employment to qualify. (oh and I'm not defending EI, there is much about the whole program that I hate-- I am just saying that the unfairness is not THAT obvious)


                  I understand the theory of the current system, but the current system wasn't designed to adjust to changing realities. Try finding a low skilled job in Windsor these days. You may as well be a fisherman in NL.



                  It does go deeper that simply users of the system. (Oh and don't get me started about the many fisherman that are pros at using and abusing the EI system). But a fix of making EI as easy as some of the easiest groups to qualify just doesn't resonate and if the idea is to make qualification and benefits homogenous, then you have to go at the easiest/best level for ALL

                  or, you have to make the situation a little worse for some people do you not?


                  I'm not endorsing the Lib position, just trying to analyze it politically.


                  Oh and car workers in particular are not that sympathetic. I know that many people outside Ontario and some inside as well would view them as long overpaid with greedy unions that led to the uncompetitiveness of their employers and ultimately their own downfall. I know that is only one sector of the hard hit manufacturing but it is a major one.


                  Again, I don't think the fight is outside ON. AB isn't going to vote for Iggy one way or the other.

                  You are right, it isn't just auto jobs. Quite frankly I suspect the auto jobs are actually a minority of the "lost" jobs in this province over the last few years.



                  I always love it when so many of the "worst things" the Cons are "doing" were actually created and refined under the liberals. It was the same when the Liberals were being criticized in the post Mulrooney years by the Conservatives (all 2 of them LOL). It seems as soon as a party goes in opposition the policies that they implemented become repugnant.


                  It is a profession that breeds cynicism.


                  Sorry but changing an EI policy that isn't at all new, wasn't created by the Conservatives and which won't materially change the results (Iggy as leader will have a bigger impact) doesn't hit me as a reason to kill the government. yet Iggy probably feels he needs some issue since calling an election simply because he might win might and probably will result in a voter backlash from an electorate that is frankly sick of elections.


                  I'm doubtful he will succeed on this issue either but I suspect there are a couple policies yet to come from the Libs. They aren't going to go the Dion route and let the Conservative attack machine chew away at their central platform for months before a vote.


                  The recession seems to be ending in Canada and if the job numbers start to show improvement ( I know there can be a significant lag on that ), the "emergency" need to reform EI won't be as apparent.


                  Again, I think it is a ON issue and probably will be for awhile.

                  Personally I just don't want an election un ess there is some major defining issue or some chance of a materially changed result. Minority governments seem to be something we may be faced with for a while and I think the parties have to learn to run the country in that scenario
                  I don't think Harper and the Conservatives know how to play nice in a minority situation. It's not in their DNA.

                  I only want a vote if Harper will lose (even if that means a Lib minority).
                  "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
                  "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I'll note that I used to work with two women (in Ontario) who enjoyed gaming the EI system. And they were "professionals". They just really did not like to work.

                    I can see why Ontario wants to make EI pay out more, more often. It's a regional attitude problem, as Wezil says.
                    "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                    Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Wezil View Post
                      I think you misunderstand me. This is a politically regional issue this time out. The battleground will be in ON (particularly southern ON) yet again as "the West" will most certainly return C's and the BQ is liable to do well again in QC. The seats to be won and lost will be in the hard hit manufacturing centres of southern ON. The exceptionally high unemployment numbers in these places are a recent development.
                      I believe

                      1. the Liberals need a better issue though. EI isn't something that will capture the hearts and minds etc etc. I know parts of Ontario have been hard hit but I am asking how widespread it is. Two ridings in Windsor are NDP already and Toronto is almost completely Liberal. The Tories did well in most of the rest of Southern Ontario so there are areas for Liberal growth

                      2. the Liberals strategy needs to go after more than Ontario. While it has the most seats and lots of the closest races, the reality is that the Tories led 143-77 nationwide so the margin is 66 seats. Assuming all other parties maintained their seat totals (a wrong assumption but bear with me for a moment), the Liberals would need to take 33 ish from the Tories. Since the tories margin in Ontario was "only" 51-38 that math dictates that you need to reduce the Tories to 18 Ontario seats to end up tie nationwide . That result strikes me as unlikley so I think the Liberals need to find ways to change things up in BC and Quebec. As long as the BQ gets 49 or so seats and the Liberals concede the 61 of 82 seats in the West to the Tories, the electoral math doesn't work for them. The Liberals already are getting as much as they can expect from the matitimes realistically ( any possible gains in NB are likley to be offset by a more powerful NDP in NS-- people like their provincial NDP govt and holding the NDP national convention in Halifax was a smart move)-- The weird thing is that the electoral math doesn't work for the Tories either. they already dominate the West and more there is unlikely. 51 of Ontario's 106 seats is probably about as good as they could expect there. The east? NL is pissed at the Tories and gains elsewhere are unlikely.

                      Bottom line is that if Quebec stays relatively unchanged we are probably looking at minority governments for a while. Iggy alone and a competent campaign might be enough to swing 20 seats in Ontario but I think beyond that you need some big issue (to avoid voter backlash). Slamming Harper for maintaining the Liberal EI policy just doesn't strike me as something that resonates-- heck it may even alienate some voters-- you know some hard working folks that don't like the idea of more social programs etc etc

                      All I know for sure is that Harper couldn't attain a majority against a completely inept Dion. I would expect that he would lose seats in any face-off with Ignatieuf. But unless the Bloc explodes or there is some other BIG issue that collapses Tory support somewhere, its a tough go for the Liberals to even get into a slight lead of a minority government let alone anywhere near where thay can dream of a majority
                      You don't get to 300 losses without being a pretty exceptional goaltender.-- Ben Kenobi speaking of Roberto Luongo

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I agree with Flubber's analysis, but I think that he's failing to fully appreciate how unlikely it is for Quebec to remain as it is now. 49 seats for the Bloc will not stand. In all likelihood, the split of the federalist vote will not be as severe the next time around.
                        12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
                        Stadtluft Macht Frei
                        Killing it is the new killing it
                        Ultima Ratio Regum

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by KrazyHorse View Post
                          I agree with Flubber's analysis, but I think that he's failing to fully appreciate how unlikely it is for Quebec to remain as it is now. 49 seats for the Bloc will not stand. In all likelihood, the split of the federalist vote will not be as severe the next time around.
                          I do appreciate that NOTHING will stand still. I just assumed it for the moment to explain why I think a focus on Ontario alone is not enough. heck the leadership change alone is probably good for another 10-20 seats for the Liberals.

                          I don't have a good handle on Quebec, I admit. I have read some stuff about Mulrooney trying to get his old organization working with the Conservatives though . If the Conservatives ever hope to get a majority that may be what they need-- an inroad to get 30 more seats in Quebec-- The coalition of folks that Mulrooney had could do it but I doubt that we will see that happen

                          A collapse of the Quebec Conservative vote would probably be more likely. As the sponsorship scandal fades from memory, we still have western Harper who seems to me to be even stiffer in French than he is in English. I don't know that he could really invigorate Quebec support.
                          Last edited by Flubber; August 27, 2009, 19:41.
                          You don't get to 300 losses without being a pretty exceptional goaltender.-- Ben Kenobi speaking of Roberto Luongo

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            A collapse of the Quebec Conservative vote would probably be more likely. As the sponsorship scandal fades from memory, we still have western Harper who seems to me to be even stiffer in French than he is in English. I don't know that he could really invigorate Quebec support.


                            This is my read as well.
                            12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
                            Stadtluft Macht Frei
                            Killing it is the new killing it
                            Ultima Ratio Regum

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Still don't have an issue.

                              But now we've got some of the most pointless ads I've ever seen. Pre-election Liberal ads have started.

                              Here's one where Ignatieff pretends that the fact that he's spent most of his life outside of Canada is a GoodThing™



                              And one (in French) where he attacks the CPC for running a deficit (it doesn't mention how he whines that the CPC should keep spending more, reform EI to give out more money, etc):


                              And one where he talks about how the Conservatives are being mean to the trees (also in French):


                              The fact that the majority of the ads are French-only seems to indicate that their strategy is to take as many of the Quebec votes as possible. I presume this means that the Liberals are resuming their strategy of ignoring the west to score seats in Ontario and Quebec, the Environment ad strongly hints this way also.
                              "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                              Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

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