CanPol - Fall election: Do we have an issue yet?

[Ben Kenobi]

If the condition is discovered before it is an "emergency" does the woman get to sit in the ER and let it fester until it becomes an emergency?

It would be monitored, yes. Isn't that the normal procedure, send the woman home, but have the condition carefully monitored, before taking any further steps?

[Ben Kenobi]

I'm in the same position. I've voted CPC before. If I was polled, I would say I'd support some restrictions on abortion.

Which restrictions would you support and why?

If the CPC actually attempted to pass the restrictions Ben is proposing, they would absolutely lose my vote. Not only that, but I would never ever vote CPC again until I felt there was a complete purge at the top levels of the party.

So, you don't think that a ban on abortions after three months is reasonable, or is it the removal of abortion funding? I'm rather perplexed by what you find so offensive.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ok so you are taking a poll that is saying 49% want unrestricted abortions to mean 51% want it banned outright ot only allowed for rape and incest. Where do you put people like me?? I would say unrestricted abortion up to a point but not after the fetus is viable outside the womb-- this balances a woman's choice to abort if she makes it in a timely fashion with some concept of respect for or rights of the fetus

And therein is the rub. The first poll does not represent your views well at all. Viability is now at about 20 weeks or so.

Your views would be best represented by this bill.

Since I am not in the 49% thats wishes unrestricted abortion you would place me in your 51%. Yet, even though I have been a conservative voter in the past , you would lose my vote if you put forth that position-- and I suspect there are lots more like me-- depending on how it was presented you might even incentivize people like me to get more politically involved

Well why is the bill so offensive to you?

Thats how hot this issue is Ben -- people that who might normally vote Conservative might go full circle and fight this issue tooth and nail-- If you think this has a chance in hell you are seriously deluded

I'm aware of that, which is why I'm trying to suss out where people really stand. I'm not convinced that people are really getting what's going on here and are hitting the panic button full stop. Rationally, support for this bill should be greater for youthan the status quo, for the simple reason that the current status quo is abortion anytime within nine months. If you sincerely believe that we ought to have respect for the unborn child, then why are you so opposed to a bill banning abortion after the first three months?

[Asher]

I don't think we're killing enough babies, frankly. It takes entirely too long to get to work. We're overpopulated.

I think we need to cull a good 45% of our population as-is, let alone popping more babies out. When will some politician make a stand on this issue?

[Flubber]

So if your wife were 30 weeks along and she had a serious complication, you would choose to kill your baby rather than attempting an emergency c-section? I'm curious, what complications have you witness and when did they occur?



Well I'd like you to specify more as to what you were dealing with early on.

Ben I don't intend to relate my personal story for your amusement

I am a father of two children-- To you this is all theory. To me it was very real and you have no freaking clue what you are talking about. We had zero abortions but if we had with our doctors decided otherwise there would have been no state authority around that would have prevented us . Right wing nutjobs that wish to impose their idea of morailty on me are politely requested to perform an anatomically impossible act.

The only thing I agree with you on is that I would do a c section-- In an emergency situation its actually the quickest way to get the baby out so your emergency abortion situation is pretty much a fiction-- If you need the baby out NOW they can do it in 2 minutes through a c section-- I have already indicated that I have little issue with restrictions on late term abortions.

Oh and Ben you have continually talked about viability at 20 weeks--I think that realistically its more up in the 25-26 week age-- a minor point but a 21week fetus weighs about 12 ounces and is about 10 inches long-- and don't bore me with exceptional cases-- talk about the realistic age where a fetus has a 50-50 chance

[Flubber]

. If you sincerely believe that we ought to have respect for the unborn child, then why are you so opposed to a bill banning abortion after the first three months?

If you placed the bar more around the 5-6 month mark where viability really is I could agree to restricting abortion to cases where the health of the mother is at serious risk. I would retain funding for abortions before that. I respect people's right to choose and it must be a real choice.

Go earlier and you lose me
Cut funding and you lose me
Try to tell me ever that the choice isn't there if there is any serious health risk and you lose me and I would fight you forever

Is that clear enough?

[Flubber]

I don't think we're killing enough babies, frankly. It takes entirely too long to get to work. We're overpopulated.

I think we need to cull a good 45% of our population as-is, let alone popping more babies out. When will some politician make a stand on this issue?

and the cull should be just women below the age of 45-- need to weed out the breeders after all

[KrazyHorse]

The earliest that I've ever heard of surviving was about 22 weeks, and that made international headlines, as I recall.

20 weeks is NOT viable. As I understand it, "viability" is usually considered to be around 24 weeks, where the fetus has about a 50/50 chance of surviving outside the womb.

[Flubber]

The earliest that I've ever heard of surviving was about 22 weeks, and that made international headlines, as I recall.

20 weeks is NOT viable. As I understand it, "viability" is usually considered to be around 24 weeks, where the fetus has about a 50/50 chance of surviving outside the womb.

Your recollection is similar to mine-- I had actually thought that making it to week 25 was consdiered a bit of a landmark-- but I had not researched the point so could assert nothing with any authority

[Flubber]

ben

On your proposal-- who gets to decide if a woman gets an abortion for health reasons-- you said no board so an individual doctor gets to decide?

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben I don't intend to relate my personal story for your amusement

Then don't bring it up into the discussion. You brought it up, I'm asking you because I want to understand better what's going on in your head. That is all. You think I find this amusing? Far from it.

I am a father of two children-- To you this is all theory. To me it was very real and you have no freaking clue what you are talking about.

Actually I do, but thanks for playing.

We had zero abortions but if we had with our doctors decided otherwise there would have been no state authority around that would have prevented us . Right wing nutjobs that wish to impose their idea of morailty on me are politely requested to perform an anatomically impossible act.

That's right. I believe it's wrong to kill children through abortion. I do believe we all should follow a moral law, which is the same one that protects the rights of you and your wife. Your child deserves nothing less.

The only thing I agree with you on is that I would do a c section-- In an emergency situation its actually the quickest way to get the baby out so your emergency abortion situation is pretty much a fiction-- If you need the baby out NOW they can do it in 2 minutes through a c section-- I have already indicated that I have little issue with restrictions on late term abortions.

Thank you. That is all I'm saying. In an emergency situation, the c-section is the best option. The situations you are bringing up are not emergencies at all.

Oh and Ben you have continually talked about viability at 20 weeks--I think that realistically its more up in the 25-26 week age-- a minor point but a 21week fetus weighs about 12 ounces and is about 10 inches long-- and don't bore me with exceptional cases-- talk about the realistic age where a fetus has a 50-50 chance

Interesting.

So when it's the life of your child, you don't think a 50/50 chance is good enough? At 23 weeks, you have a 15 percent chance of survival. IMO, if you have a chance to save the life of the child, you should take it.

[Ben Kenobi]

On your proposal-- who gets to decide if a woman gets an abortion for health reasons-- you said no board so an individual doctor gets to decide?

I already said that 'health' can, and has been interpreted apply to emotional health as well. Essentially a health option is the same as no restrictions on abortion at all.

I said very specifically, that there really is no decision to make at all. If the life of the mother, the life of the mother, not her health, is at risk from her pregnancy than the doctor should perform an emergency c-section to save the life of the mother and the baby.

[Ben Kenobi]

If you placed the bar more around the 5-6 month mark where viability really is I could agree to restricting abortion to cases where the health of the mother is at serious risk. I would retain funding for abortions before that. I respect people's right to choose and it must be a real choice.

So then why am I forced to pay for other people's abortions? It's not right.

Try to tell me ever that the choice isn't there if there is any serious health risk and you lose me and I would fight you forever

Again, the problem with a 'health' option is that it's the same as unrestricted abortion. Any and all reasons are sufficient.

Are you not getting this? I think you do, which is why you will not budge on the point. What respect do you have for the unborn child? I'm not seeing it at all.

[KrazyHorse]

In case Ben is still blathering on, there are already almost no abortions performed when the fetus would be viable. The CDC reports that in the US 1.4% of all abortions were performed at 21 weeks or later, while the Canadian Medical Association reports even fewer (<0.5%) are performed late term in Canada (20 weeks or later)

[Ben Kenobi]

You know it's really interesting.

This bill would permit 90 percent of all abortions, and yet it's not enough for some.

I'm glad to see how well compromises are received.