[serious] Off Topic Moderation Input - Part 2

[Asher]

Ben fears that DROSe is unknown about a possible infection he has, and passes it on.
Ben does not say that DROSe does it on purpose.

Ben doesn't say that DROSe is a selfish liar, his exact words are: "DROSe, I'm sure you are a great person"

Are you really, really this dense?

YES, he did. He both called DRose a liar (it's in one of the posts I linked): claiming he lied to donate blood so he could feel good about himself. That's calling him a selfish liar.

The "fear" Ben has was unfounded. He assumed that, as a young high school student, DRose was engaging in high-risk sexual activity. A fear he based solely on the fact that DRose was gay -- nevermind that Ben has probably more sexual experience than DRose does. An offensive characterization Ben made solely based on DRose's sexual orientation. He then added on the selfish liar bit just to be a good Christian.

Ben doesn't name DROSe a liar either.
You're going way over the top here, Asher.

Yes, he did. Please learn to read. This is infuriating. I take MY time to read through a thread I ALREADY REPORTED because YOU couldn't be bothered to do your damn job. Then apparently you don't even read what I link. Unreal.

Is it wrong to refer to another individual of a group you belong to as "one of you"?
One of you (christians) murdered that abortion doctor.
One of you (dutch guys) introduced slavery in Suriname
One of you (heteros) raped a girl
One of you (gays) talked to me in the bar yesterday.

I see no problem.

That quote in and of itself is not bannable or wrong, per se. But it's a reflection of Ben's attitude. Homosexuals are not one of us. They are something else.

Drose was accused of lying. So what?
We can't even accuse each other of lying anymore.

Was he or was he not accused of lying? You keep flip-flopping inbetween a couple sentences here.

Ok, now I see that you're not serious.

What the ****?

You don't think I'm serious?

Now you're just being insulting. I'm very serious -- It's very insulting for people to think my relationship is any less real or less valid than theirs. Ben's comparison to long-term monogamous gay couples to that of unicorns has a very obvious implication. It would be an utter shame if Ben's "clever" use of words here is way over your head.

Best of all is that Ben in that post admits/agrees that monogame gays are as (un)likely to get HIV infected as monogame heteroes.

You clearly have the reading skills of Ben here. I can see why you don't see a problem.

Someone who says "Patatoe/patato" does not compare his subject to a patatoe and Ben does not compare a gay to an unicorn. He just uses it as an example.

Don't be silly Asher.

You're clearly not on a requisite level of intelligence to understand what's going on. This is embarrassing for you.

a. no link

IT IS IN THE ****ING THREAD THAT I HAVE ALREADY LINKED. Please learn to read.

b. so what? Is it bad to be gay? Does it matter if more blacks are gay? Does it offend anybody? Dutch people are more likely to be blonde then people from Kenya. So what?
Maybe it's not even true, then it's just nonsense.

Yes, so what?

Let's play more games.

Blacks are stupid.
Blacks are more likely to rape their children.
Blacks are more likely to be cannibals.
Blacks frequently eat the semen of their first born children because they don't get enough salt in their fried chicken diets.

Let's ****ing rock n' roll with this **** on the site. That's not against your terms of service at all, is it?

no link.

SAME ****ING THREAD. Come on, *******.

Anyway, so what? It's silly at most.

It would be silly to you. I've had one gay friend kill himself and my SO's gay friend killed himself in February(?) of this year. Silly to you, personal to others, insensitive and inappropriate to all.

And Asher, you provoke Ben all the time.
His response to me is always: "I get provoked and then I answer."
If you provoke him, then don't expect me to defend you when he hits you back with silly words.

It's interesting how the guy who waltzes around calling for my rights to be revoked and belittles my relationship is the one claiming he is being provoked.

Smarten then hell up, Plomp. Shape up or ship out. I've completely lost patience with your inability to run this site.

[Wezil]

You think that we should have a rule that says that it's not allowed to lie on Apolyton?

First Nikolai, then Plomp. Putting words in people's mouths.

I said a lie isn't an opinion Plomp. I said nothing about rules.

[Wezil]

His presence at this site, as it is now...unchecked...is undoubtedly a deterrent to new visitors. I tried to get one of my best friends posting here (woollyleanne), but she only posted a few times before encountering Ben in one of the hockey threads and was aghast that such dishonesty and bigotry was allowed here. She hasn't returned since.

I lost a Dead Pool player over it (Omni). A long time member of the site that got tired of the ****. He hasn't been here in over a year although we still associate in RL.

[Robert]

A lie isn't an opinion Sloww, it's just a lie.

You think that we should have a rule that says that it's not allowed to lie on Apolyton?

[Robert]

The key word is implication. Like I said, it wasn't Islam that flew those planes into the WTC.

What's your point?

Besides, I reread the part where MOBIUS was banned, how does it differ from what BK is doing all the time? Where does he say that he is going to abort BK? Or was he banned because what he said implied that BK should be dead?

He was banned because he stated that BK should be dead.

[Wezil]

One may not agree with Ben, but were he to be banned, he certainly shouldn't be the only one. His opinions may run counter to yours, but they're his opinions.
There are other logins here that make no pretext of stating an opinion, and merely flame.

A lie isn't an opinion Sloww, it's just a lie.

[dannubis]

The key word is implication. Like I said, it wasn't Islam that flew those planes into the WTC.

Besides, I reread the part where MOBIUS was banned, how does it differ from what BK is doing all the time? Where does he say that he is going to abort BK? Or was he banned because what he said implied that BK should be dead?

[Robert]

Islam is a religion, an ideology.
One can say everything about a religion or an ideology.

There's a difference between saying "Islam is a cruel bloodthirsty wrong evil religion" and saying "all muslims are cruel bloodthirsty wrong evil people"
The latter would be a bannable offense.

[dannubis]

Is this close enough for you ?

http://apolyton.net/forums/showpost.php?p=5822663&postcount=249

It was not islam that flew those plains into the towers. So only a blind man can't see the implication there.

[Robert]

If you have jurispedence that any of those Ben quotes are hate speech, then we can talk.

I don't believe they are because they're not about people being wrong b/c of what they are, but for what they do.

Saying: "Islam is wrong" is something completely different then saying: "All muslims are criminals"
The latter would be a bannable offense.

Saying: "Gay sex is unhealthy" is something completely different then saying: "All gays are immoral"
The latter one would be a bannable offense.

[Zanzozz]

2. Hate speech based on sex, sexual orientation, race, religion, age, disability will not be tolerated.

http://apolyton.net/forums/faq.php?faq=faqid_4#faq_faqid_4_43

Hate speech is, outside the law, any communication which disparages a person or a group on the basis of some characteristic such as race or sexual orientation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech

to depreciate by indirect means (as invidious comparison) : speak slightingly about

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/disparage

There's a difference between judging actions (ie, homosexuality)

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?t=191845&page=22

Having sex with guys is also bad for you.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?t=191845&page=19

About homosexuality? What is extravagant about the claim that homosexuality is bad for your mental and physical health? Why does it matter if a claim is ludicrious if true?

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?t=191845&page=20

Islam is wrong
Homosexuality is wrong
Killing people and harvesting their organs is wrong,

are all objectively true.

So, are all of the above simply not disparaging towards homosexuality because it is based on facts that Ben claims to be true?

[Robert]

Asher: I have a feeling you would feel differently if the comments Ben made repeatedly devalued your relationships. It's one thing to say "an opinion is an opinion", it's another thing when his "opinion" is grossly offensive because it's making sweeping value judgements on other people. You have to remember that gays still do not have equal rights. Not everything is rosy. Some people consider us oversensitive for these kinds of issues, but can you really blame us? We live in a society that, by and large, is still "opposed" to us. It's very, very difficult to ignore people like Ben when we have to fight tooth-and-nail to get what we have now.

People are repeatedly making comments about how ignorant, stupid, silly, blind, unworthy, rampant, etc. christians are. So what? I consider them to be pretty stupid themselves.

And if there's a gay-right debate going on where you live, then you'd better take a respectable position in the debate, countering silly arguments with good ones, or just use silence when silly things are said.

Provoking the others, yelling at them, trying to silence them, is not going to help your case. Most important: be reasonable. Admit things that are true. Understand where the other comes from. That's how you change the hearts and the minds of people. Not how you guys treath Ben. (like Ben will never be able to change your hearts and minds b/c of the way he talks to you)

[Robert]

If Ben simply believed homosexuality endangered people's souls and he had a duty to warn people, that would be fine. One of the problems with Ben is that he would rather support his beliefs in dishonest or stupid ways than admit that they are just his personal beliefs. And of course he thinks some of his beliefs, despite just being his personal beliefs, should be enforced by the government.

What's wrong with that?
People had the personal believe in Holland that gays should be able to marry, and that this should be enforced by the government. In the end the government agreed and gay marriage was enforced by law.

Democracy means that every individual can express that his personal believes should be enforced by the government.

The worst thing for democracy is not that someone can have a weird opinion or someone is trying to make the government to change a certain law.
The worst thing for democracy is that some people want to block others from having these democratic rights.

[Robert]

Here are the posts in question where he accuses DRose of being a selfish liar and put many lives at risk for giving blood: http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showp...3&postcount=34

Ben fears that DROSe is unknown about a possible infection he has, and passes it on.
Ben does not say that DROSe does it on purpose.

Ben doesn't say that DROSe is a selfish liar, his exact words are: "DROSe, I'm sure you are a great person"

Ben clearly has some worries. These worries may or may not be realistic. I don't see why he's not allowed to express these worries. Apparently these worries are common since the law apparently say that gays cannot donate blood.

Ben doesn't name DROSe a liar either.
You're going way over the top here, Asher.

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showp...7&postcount=55

In this post, he refers to a homosexual as "one of you"....and accuses DRose of lying in order to donate blood, which makes him "happy": http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showp...&postcount=266

Is it wrong to refer to another individual of a group you belong to as "one of you"?
One of you (christians) murdered that abortion doctor.
One of you (dutch guys) introduced slavery in Suriname
One of you (heteros) raped a girl
One of you (gays) talked to me in the bar yesterday.

I see no problem.

Drose was accused of lying. So what?
We can't even accuse each other of lying anymore.

Personally I disagree with Ben here, reading the thread. Drose didn't lie. He wasn't asked and did not tell. That's not a lie.
But I don't see at all how it's a crime to mention that "one of you" "lied".

Not to mention that it's easy countered: "One of you christians also lied when he donated blood."
It's most probably true as well, that one christian lied once. So what?

This post is a bonus: In this one he compares gay men in long-term monogamous relationships (eg, me) to an animal that only exists in fiction:
http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showp...8&postcount=65

Ok, now I see that you're not serious.
Best of all is that Ben in that post admits/agrees that monogame gays are as (un)likely to get HIV infected as monogame heteroes.

Someone who says "Patatoe/patato" does not compare his subject to a patatoe and Ben does not compare a gay to an unicorn. He just uses it as an example.

Don't be silly Asher. Your next argument should really make sense or I'll stop investing my time into this.

And another bonus...that's the thread he was talking about how black people are more likely to be gay.

a. no link
b. so what? Is it bad to be gay? Does it matter if more blacks are gay? Does it offend anybody? Dutch people are more likely to be blonde then people from Kenya. So what?
Maybe it's not even true, then it's just nonsense.

Another bonus: He said the reason gay teenagers have such a high suicide rate is that they were raped by gay men.

no link.
Anyway, so what? It's silly at most.
I can see that it angers you. I am angered myself as well when people say that all christians are dumb nutcases who don't think for themselves and only blindly follow what their minister says. (and that's being said a lot).

It angers me because it's not true, and it especially doesn't apply to myself. But in the end people who say that are just ignorant nutcases. I counter them with words. I'd certainly not want them to be banned.

People all the time make jokes about choir guys who were all raped by their priest. How all priests are gay. How all christians have a fixation on their cross.

Sometimes such a joke is funny. (when relevant).
Often it's boring silly stuff.
I'd never want any of them to be banned.

This is also the thread where he blatantly makes up numbers to slander gays, backs them up with fake citations, then ignores people calling him out on it.

Which is a bannable offense?
Which rule does it violate?

THIS IS ALL IN ONE SINGLE THREAD. This goes FAR beyond his Christianity, don't you think?

Yes, I think so. (for the record: I have also made a lot of posts that go far beyond christianity, and so did you).

But I don't think that's a bannable offence.
Lying is not forbidden on Apolyton, neither is is being dishonest.

And Asher, you provoke Ben all the time.
His response to me is always: "I get provoked and then I answer."
If you provoke him, then don't expect me to defend you when he hits you back with silly words.

Bottom line, Asher; you're a strong self-aware man, I don't think that you need my help against Ben. Not to mention that like 25 people on Apolyton agree with you and stand up for you.
Nobody is standing up for Ben's rights. He's being yelled at all day. That's fine with me. But when people send him death wishes, then I will act. And I will do the same if someone sends death wishes to you or anybody else.

[SlowwHand]

It's also still the 90's, AAHZ.