Abortion Doctor Gunned Down at Church

[Guynemer]

Are these common (relatively speaking of course) occurances? This poll at least seems to point toward medical necessity being among the least common reasons women gave for having a later abortion.

Yes, it is true that medical necessity for the mother is rare. (Although, in my three months spent in the NICU, I did see several mothers who had to be hospitalized as a direct result of their pregnancy, and more than one died.)

I thought you were asking about finding severe fetal problems late-term, mea culpa.

[Krill]

Sounds like quite a few severe car accident victims, to the glue factory with them!

More seriously, are there any physical damages besides brain damage that allows a doctor to declare a patient forfiet?

You ****ing troll.

You just compared people who drive badly, who got unlucky to sit with those that drive badly and didn't know about it, to those who never had a chacne.

You ****ing moron.

I work with those that didn;t get to 24 weeks. They think you are a disgrace to the 24 weeks limit.

[SpencerH]

I agree that aborting late term (@ 22+ weeks?) for "birth control" reasons is ****ed up. However, based on the testimonials up over at the Daily Dish, it appears that women carrying fetuses with terrible defects (as in guaranteed short life lived in agony or guaranteed ~10 years of vegetation) traveled to Kansas for Dr. Tiller's services. How they stack up as a percentage, I have no idea, but for those women it wasn't "birth control."

I have a good friend whose wife just recently gave birth to twins. One of the two had a chromosonal defect and died a few hours after birth (he was ~2lbs, defective heart, defective brain, you name it). The other twin was healthy. If the scenario had been different - if the healthy twin wasn't there, I can't figure how the law should prevent a woman in her situation from deciding not to carry to term.

In other situations, I think the focus should be on reducing demand via birth control and adoption.

-Arrian

There's no doubt that some late term abortions are truly necessary and I didnt mean to trivialize the tough choices that are made by parents to be.

The problem, as I see it, is that the vagueness of the laws puts the power solely in the hands of the attending physician. Thats a lot of power and a lot of potential for corruption.

Tiller made a speech in 1995 where he stated, "We have some experience with late terminations: about 10,000 patients between 24 and 36 weeks and something like 800 fetal anomalies between 26 and 36 weeks in the past 5 years." His statement is a little apples and oranges, but it does suggest that most of the late term abortions he carried out were not for the reasons of fetal disfunction. In addition, there was some question whether a significant proportion of the late 2nd trimester abortions he performed were in fact early 3rd trimester due to the skewed method he used to calculate the gestational age.

Its not my area of expertise and I'm cognizant of the late term "grey area" but it does seem to me that Tiller provided abortions in situations that appear repugnant to me.

[SpencerH]

DD:

There are actually a large number of various disorders and deformities that may not be detected until late in the pregnancy. Fetal ultrasound is quite good, but it is far from perfect, and highly operator-dependant.

In particular, a number of severe, crippling heart deformities (such as hypoplastic left heart syndrome, as an example) may not be detected until lateterm. Several renal abnormalities may not be detected either, as the malfunctioning kidneys affect the amount of amniotic fluid.


I am reminded of a couple of horrific experiences during my residency here in Columbus. In one case, while working the NICU, we knew at some point in the coming weeks a child would be delivered who had some unspecified lung abnormality--the lungs were significantly underdeveloped for the estimated fetal age. The cause was unknown, and something that simply could not be deliniated on the ultrasound. As the end of the month rolled around, I thought we might dodge the bullet and the next team would have to deal with it. But in that last week, we were called to the delivery--the child at this point was ~30 weeks. The plan was to deliver the child via c-section, but leave the cord attached to the placenta until we could determine what exactly was going on--this way, the child would at least be getting oxygen through his cord.

The child was removed from the womb, and an endoscope was placed down the trachea to try to visualize the lungs. The trachea just ended. Full stop. It did not connect to the lungs. There was no way for the child to breathe, and nothing we could do to make her breathe. The cord was cut, the child was brought over to our warmer, and I watched her struggle to suck air into lungs that had no connection to the outside world for about a minute, and she died.

Truly a tough job

[Ben Kenobi]

A 22 weeker, as detailed above, has zero chance of having any quality of life. Those that survive face only endless suffering and pain while ringing up ~$1 million in medical bills a year that we, the people, pay for. I would not try to save a 22 weeker.

24 weekers, who have a chance (a small chance, but a chance), I'd do my best.

Ok. Thanks for your honest response.

Are you aware that having a previous abortion is a significant risk factor for future premature births?

[Ben Kenobi]

If we're declared a war against fetuses, then clearly, yes.

Black 'americans' didn't used to be considered 'Americans' either as they weren't considered to be citizens. They weren't even considered persons.

[Patroklos]

You ****ing troll.

I am sorry if you are not able to properly recognize the implications of the positions you hold. The only thing I am asking for is consistency, something that unfortunately people like you can only be bothered to consider when such examples are given. The flaw is yours.

You just compared people who drive badly, who got unlucky to sit with those that drive badly and didn't know about it, to those who never had a chacne.

I did no such thing. I suggest you read it again, as the fury of having been confronted with the lack of logical consistancy your position holds is obviously making you irrational.

You ****ing moron.

That’s right, let it all out. Its too bad you can't just tell us convenience and selfishness is the reason you support late term abortions. At least then you would have some academic creditability even if you are morally bankrupt.

I work with those that didn;t get to 24 weeks. They think you are a disgrace to the 24 weeks limit.

Take a breath and type something coherent.

While you are doing that realize that 1.) I am not against all abortions and 2.) I am doing my best to apply medical standards as opposed to just gut feeling judgements like you and MikeH. I even asked Guy for the specific parameters physicians use to determine what is a human life that requires saving and what is not. All I want is for those parameters to be applied consistently.

[Guynemer]

Are you aware that having a previous abortion is a significant risk factor for future premature births?

...and this has to do with what, exactly?

[Krill]

I think I just won the thread.

[Patroklos]

I think I just won the thread.

You mistake your dunce cap for a gold metal. Which is exactly why you deserve the dunce cap

The proper response from you was to apologize and actually contribute to the thread, but do it your way

[SpencerH]

Blah

[Krill]

You wish Paddy. You wish.

[MrFun]

I think I just won the thread.

Spewing out needless, unwarranted insults will not win people over to your "arguments."

[Krill]

You mistake your dunce cap for a gold metal. Which is exactly why you deserve the dunce cap

The proper response from you was to apologize and actually contribute to the thread, but do it your way

Unfortunately, competant medical services had nothing to do with your birth Patty. Guynemer already shot down why true late term abortions are necessary, and he is a ****ing pediatrician. I shot down why Kansas is retarded.

Do you need a ****ing disabled sticker for your car, dude?

[Patroklos]

You wish Paddy. You wish.

Hey, you wallow in your logically inconsistant fantasy world all you want, it seems to be where you abortion opinion is derived from anyway. Enjoy!