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  • #241
    After googling up some discussions on other forums, I'm amazed how many people have problems with understanding that the old continuity (all the movies, series) still exists. This movie uses the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics.


    When Spock and Nero travel back in time, the original timeline it isn't like the original timeline never happened. They simply start a new branch.

    So the timeline looks like this:

    Enterprise > nothing happens > TOS > the first 10 movies, TNG, DS9, Voyager > Supernova, Spock and Nero are never heard from again > Borgz attack for the 527th time ect.

    Enterprise > Spock, Nero show up > The new Star Trek movie > Sequels to this Trek
    Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
    The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
    The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila

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    • #242
      Originally posted by -Jrabbit View Post
      Chris Pine was really good as the lead in Bottle Shock -- a movie I highly recommend, well written and with a great cast (the awesome Alan Rickman, Bill Pullman, Rachael Taylor). I found it strange that the studio PR for ST never seems to mention this.
      Different type of audiences.
      “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
      - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

      Comment

      • #243
        Originally posted by Patroklos View Post
        Spoiler:
        It doesn't matter if Spock knows that Nero is a vengeful enemy or not (he did). He is carrying a weapon capable of killing trillions, the idea that he would allow that to be captured either means 1.) we have to accept that Spock is an incompetant or a coward or both, or 2.) the writers are lazy and needed it to happen, so it did.

        I don't even stop by the gas station when transporting government small arms, let alone stop by a ship that is even if not my enemy still the property of a race that is the cold rival of my country.
        Spoiler:
        I have no clue about Star Trek history (as do most of the people who went and saw this movie), so why would one attempt to stop the destruction of the home planet of a cold rival? Even promise it. Or maybe he figured surrending was "logical" because he could influence the future if alive to prevent other worse things
        “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
        - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

        Comment

        • #244
          Originally posted by Heraclitus View Post
          After googling up some discussions on other forums, I'm amazed how many people have problems with understanding that the old continuity (all the movies, series) still exists. This movie uses the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics.


          When Spock and Nero travel back in time, the original timeline it isn't like the original timeline never happened. They simply start a new branch.

          So the timeline looks like this:

          Enterprise > nothing happens > TOS > the first 10 movies, TNG, DS9, Voyager > Supernova, Spock and Nero are never heard from again > Borgz attack for the 527th time ect.

          Enterprise > Spock, Nero show up > The new Star Trek movie > Sequels to this Trek

          That's because they are thick
          Is it me, or is MOBIUS a horrible person?

          Comment

          • #245
            Spoiler:
            I have no clue about Star Trek history (as do most of the people who went and saw this movie), so why would one attempt to stop the destruction of the home planet of a cold rival? Even promise it. Or maybe he figured surrending was "logical" because he could influence the future if alive to prevent other worse things
            Spoiler:
            If Russia were about the be completely wiped off the map by a natural disaster in 1984 do you think we would not have helped them?

            I am unaware of any event in ST that had the potential to kill trillions. Nero killed six billion people in a day, and could have repeated the action a thousand more times if he wanted too, and spock obviously knows about the power of this stuff since he intends to reign in a super nova (!) with it. No, there is no "logical" reason for Spock to allow the stuff to get into Nero's hands. And thanks to new Spock's little scene with Spock's ship, we know he was perfectly capable of getting away or at least preventing its capture.

            I feel you on the back story stuff, you shouldn't have needed any for the movie to work. Unfortunetly you do need it for the movie to work and not for nit picky stuff like Spock getting captured, but for major plot basis stuff like why the hell a miner has such a badass ship. Unfortunetly most of the viewers of the movie will never know of the existance of the comic book, and even people like me who do will probably never get around to reading it. Thats just another reason why this movie's story sucks.
            "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

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            • #246
              Um... most people don't need the backstory for the movie to work. They like it even without knowing it.

              As for:
              Spoiler:
              No, there is no "logical" reason for Spock to allow the stuff to get into Nero's hands. And thanks to new Spock's little scene with Spock's ship, we know he was perfectly capable of getting away or at least preventing its capture.


              Spoiler:
              New Spock had to slam the ship into the mining vessel, creating black hole. Perhaps Spock Prime thought he could do better if he lived. As in Asher's spoiler, he knew what was coming and preventing that, he felt, was more important.. who knows. Or... he just didn't want to die
              “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
              - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

              Comment

              • #247
                Um... most people don't need the backstory for the movie to work. They like it even without knowing it.
                Yes, most people only need flashy explosions and Ohura in **** me boots for the movie to work. The plot however, probably never mattered to them.

                So, without the back story what is Nero? Just so off the shelf bad guy with a stock issued bad ass ship? You don't think for simply basic plot purposes we should be told why a miner has that thing?

                Spoiler:
                New Spock had to slam the ship into the mining vessel, creating black hole. Perhaps Spock Prime thought he could do better if he lived. As in Asher's spoiler, he knew what was coming and preventing that, he felt, was more important.. who knows. Or... he just didn't want to die
                Spoiler:
                What a novel idea, slam the thing into the ship to save six billion (maybe trillions) of lives! Thanks to the back story we know Spock's ship is the fastest in the Federation, and thanks to new Spock we know it works. No excuse.

                If he lived? What a pompous *****, dooming untold billions to death because he is so damn important!

                The simple answer is there is no reason. The story writers just couldn't be bothered to actually write a reason and instead just cut to Ohura's ass the next screen after which the plot hole somehow doesn't...seen...so...imp..or...

                Damn that's a fine ass
                "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

                Comment

                • #248
                  It seemed to me that whatever hundred years into the future, mining vessels were just that much more powerful. I could imagine if you put defensive arms on a present day ship, it could destroy anything from the 18th Century in seconds.

                  And sorry, I don't think many people saw it as that big a plot hole at all. So he doesn't sacrifice himself. Not everyone is all that heroic.
                  “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                  - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                  Comment

                  • #249
                    Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui View Post
                    So he doesn't sacrifice himself. Not everyone is all that heroic.
                    Except for that guy in Star Trek II: Wrath of Khan. What was his name?
                    Click here if you're having trouble sleeping.
                    "We confess our little faults to persuade people that we have no large ones." - François de La Rochefoucauld

                    Comment

                    • #250
                      Never saw it...

                      So I guess for fans its a plothole and for most of the movie going public it really isn't.

                      edit: reading wiki on it, it appears he does so to save his crewmates, in this one the motivation isn't there until Nero does the bad thing that makes new Spock mad.
                      “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                      - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                      Comment

                      • #251
                        Imran:

                        Spoiler:
                        Spock knew, prior to being sucked into the black hole, that Nero was unhinged and looking to take revenge. He knew the Narada went through first. He then pops out and finds the Narada waiting for him. The logical choice, if you're Spock, is to ram her. The good of the many outweighs the good of the few, or the one


                        Re: Wrath of Khan - it was, indeed, a character piece. I'd argue that this one was driven by the characters as well. The plot has holes bigger than the Enterprise, but honestly I don't really mind. The movie would've been better w/o those holes, sure. But it's still good in spite of them.

                        -Arrian
                        grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                        The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

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                        • #252
                          Crosspost...

                          Holy ****, Imran! You haven't seen Khan? WTF?

                          Not only does Spock sacrifice himself to save the crew, he has that classic line "the good of the many outweighs the good of the few, or the one" (how socialist, eh?) as he does it.

                          Spoiler:
                          There is, admittedly, one difference: Spock appeared to understand that he wasn't going to stay dead. He deliberately mind-melded with Bones before going to his death, preserving his memories so they could later be put back into his reincarnated (by virtue of the genesis device) body. That's not an option this time. Then again, Spock is now an old man. The logic applies: he can sacrifice himself to take out the bad guy (and the hazardous material he's toting around) or he can... meekly surrender, giving that material over to a lunatic out for revenge.


                          -Arrian
                          grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                          The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

                          Comment

                          • #253
                            Spock's a socialist?
                            You just wasted six ... no, seven ... seconds of your life reading this sentence.

                            Comment

                            • #254
                              ****ing crossposts.
                              You just wasted six ... no, seven ... seconds of your life reading this sentence.

                              Comment

                              • #255
                                Originally posted by Krill View Post
                                Spock's a socialist?
                                Why do you think he's an incompetent coward?
                                "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                                Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

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