Why is there no thread on the most important current event? ST

[KrazyHorse]

Sure there is. If you're above the event horizon, a finite amount of energy is required to escape. If you're below the event horizon, an infinite amount of energy is required to escape. Simple.

It's not as simple as this; as I remember it (and I'm not really a GR guy, so somebody who is can feel free to correct me) outward radial movement inside a nonrotating uncharged black hole (not even necessarily movement through the event horizon) requires a spacelike trajectory (i.e. in a certain sense your speed measured locally must be higher than the speed of light at all moments during during your escape). This is ignoring the fact that to any outside observer any timelike (less than the speed of light) plunge to the event horizon of a black hole takes an infinite amount of time. If you could sit far back and watch a particle fall inwards to a black hole you would see its approach velocity SLOW as it neared the event horizon.

Now, given that physics in the ST plotline already accepts the possibility of spacelike information transfer via "warp drive" (yet somehow ignores the fact that this leads directly to time travel) you might not want to pay too much attention to this problem.

In order to accept the fact that every time somebody travels to another star at many multiples of lightspeed and returns he does NOT get back earlier than he left we already have to throw out most of special relativity, so I guess general relativity is pretty much out the window.

[Lorizael]

I'm surprised it took you nearly a day to jump on my attempt at physics. For awhile, I actually thought I might be right.

[Garth Vader]

I

Now, given that physics in the ST plotline already accepts the possibility of spacelike information transfer via "warp drive" (yet somehow ignores the fact that this leads directly to time travel) you might not want to pay too much attention to this problem.

Is that why every second Trek episode or movie involves time travel?

[KrazyHorse]

I'm surprised it took you nearly a day to jump on my attempt at physics. For awhile, I actually thought I might be right.

In a certain sense you are actually right (depending on how you interpret the mathematics of it).

It certainly wasn't wrong enough to annoy me. I simply wanted to expound on it.

[KrazyHorse]

Is that why every second Trek episode or movie involves time travel?

I'm not a huge ST fan, but in my recollection all of the time travel stuff involved gravitational fields of some kind. My point is that based on our current understanding of special relativity "warp drive" leads directly to time travel even without the need for reference to black holes or diving into the sun or the like.

[Patroklos]

I dissagree. My line of reasoning goes like this...

1.) We do not know the circumstances of the destuction of the Klingon fleet. In the case of the starfleet ships he destoyed them one by one as they came out of warp unawares (yes the mechanism for how he accomplishes this doesn't make sense, yet another plot hole). The only time we see Nero's ship take on a fully aware vessel is the Kelvin, and even then it is surprised, and this ship which is far less capable than the Enterprise takes on Nerp's ship for quite a while without doing anything fancy.

2.) Nero is very concerned about the "boarder defenses" of the Federation, so much so that the spend quite a bit of screen time detailing how they were going to circumvent them via Pike. They are obviously dangerous to his vessel.

3.) As for all your "doomsday" talk above nothing you mention is beyond the capability of ships of the TOS days, presumably the contemporary powers don't do the same to each other on a regular basis for a reason. But you bring up a good point and yet another plot whole, that being why Nero bothers with the red matter in the first place.

[Heraclitus]

3.) As for all your "doomsday" talk above nothing you mention is beyond the capability of ships of the TOS days, presumably the contemporary powers don't do the same to each other on a regular basis for a reason. But you bring up a good point and yet another plot whole, that being why Nero bothers with the red matter in the first place.

I assume they don't do it because each has a fleet of ships and most planets have defenses (I imagine shields to protect from bombardment, perhaps missles and energy weapons).


In any case if he can torture one captain to get the info he needs to bypass Earth's (probably one of the most important planets in the federation) defenses he can do the same for lesser planets.

[Patroklos]

In any case if he can torture one captain to get the info he needs to bypass Earth's (probably one of the most important planets in the federation) defenses he can do the same for lesser planets.

You are missing the point. Its not that whether or not he can circumvent them, it is the fact that he HAS to circumvent them, proving that contemporary weapons can defeat him.

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Or that he just wants to reach Earth without setting off any warning systems, thus minimizing the amount of time they have to evacuate and feeding into his bloodthirsty revenge motif.

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Which is not to say I think the movie didn't have lots of plot holes. It did, I just think there are semi-reasonable explanations for that. Even he if thought Enterprise would have been able to warn Earth (did they? I don't remember Spock doing that in his haste to get back to the fleet) it may have just been easier/faster to bypass security than fight through it.

I'm also not sure the shooting down torpedoes or heavily-armed mining ship is that problematic. We've never seen MIRV (well, MIV, I guess) style torpedoes in the Trek universe before, it's plausible that they're intended as explosives for some sort of mining operation. Of course, torpedoes should be able to be destroyed with phasor fire anyway, so the "real" problem is with the original concept, not this one.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Except he isn't shot out of the sky, and the ship rams Nero's despite all his fancy weaponry. All the Enterprise did was beam him off at the last minute which is immaterial to Spock ramming the ship in the first place.

Wrong. Spock's ship was about to get blown out the sky when Enterprise shows up, shoots down a bunch of missiles heading for Spock and then creates another target that the mining ship has to deal with.

[Patroklos]

It actually doesn't matter, because in both Spock scenarios the main goal is to just get rid of the red matter, destroying Nemo's (what a stupid name) ship is just gravy.

[Drake Tungsten]

We've never seen MIRV (well, MIV, I guess) style torpedoes in the Trek universe before, it's plausible that they're intended as explosives for some sort of mining operation.

No. They're Borg technology.

[Arrian]

Nero. Hey, it's better than Nemo.

Anyway, all this stuff really doesn't matter much. The movie is fun, and works in spite of the various problems with the plot. I'm through discussing it. To me, the "why didn't Spock Prime ram the Narada in the first instance?" question basically shreds the plot, but plot is secondary to the characters, which were well-done.

-Arrian

[Ramo]

Yeah, who cares? The plot is window dressing. The movie is an homage to pulp sci fi. Hike up the miniskirts and make some 'splosions.