Another Round Begins in The Middle East

[DinoDoc]

The issue is that the whole thing seems very disproportionate

Hezbollah kidnaps two israeli soldiers, and in return, Israel destroys Lebanon.

Hamas fires home made missiles that kill no one, Israel kills hundreds of people and injures thousands.

I don't say Israel should not defend itself, but that is not the way.

So what your saying is that Israel should have kidnapped people and fired missiles randomly into civilian areas because those would be proportional responses to such provocations.

[Barnabas]

It can't be worse than what they are doing now.

They could have kidnapped some important Hezbollah people and exchange them for the two kidnapped soldiers. It is better than destroying Lebanon.

I am not even against revenge, put a bomb in the car of some important Hamas guy responsible for the missiles, or who talks positively regarding that, even if that means his whole family will blow up too, but bombing a city is unacceptable, 400 killed, thousands injured, a University destroyed, that is borderline terrorism.

What Hamas did (if it is Hamas the responsible for firing those home made missiles) is less serious than what happened a few months ago between Ecuador and Colombia, when the Colombian army entered into Ecuatorian territory to kill Farc terrorists hiding in the Ecuatorian jungle. And they managed to solve the issue peacefully.

[Sprayber]

Half measures is exactly the thing that is extending this damn feud in the first place. The Palestinians shoot their rockets and are totally dismayed when the Israelis finally get enough and strike back. But the Israelis won't finish it. They will destroy a good portion of Gaza but I do not believe they have the will to go in and finish them. So all they will accomplish is to enrage everyone else in the Middle East more than they are already. So the cycle will repeat itself over and over.

[TCO]

ship them to Jordan.

[Imran Siddiqui]

So when the US is involved to counter that, and strengthen the legal, internationally recognized PA institutions, that is wrong?

When they are trying to start a civil war by doing so, yes.

The article you tried to pass as an objective news piece, is actually a masked editorial that originated on www.conflictsforum.org - a privately owned think tank, ran by Alistair Crook - a former EU advisor that was involved in the middle east in 2001-2003 and was kicked of his role because he was a Hamas fan-boy even way then, and constantly attempted to approach them as an EU official.

The authors have a clear agenda to legitimize Hamas and while privy to political issues, certainly have a clear agenda to put on things.

I have no idea on the sources of the times article. I have good sources of my own, and was actually quite close to the field in 2006-2007, to know that Fatah military officials were surprisingly cooperative with the Hamas appointed leadership, and Hamas quickly appointed their own strong men to all key positions.

So you are telling me to ignore my biased article in favor of your biased view. Don't think so.

It was quite clear to anyone paying attention at the time that the US was going to do whatever it had to get to Hamas out of power and knowing what the US tends to do in these situations, why is it so shocking that they may be trying to fund a civil war to get people they don't like out of power? Not like it hasn't happened before!! Or do you think the US became all just and moral since the Cold War?

The main one included creating a connection between Gaza and the West Bank. Israel objected on the grounds it will only strengthen Hamas within Gaza, and strengthen Hamas offshoots in the West Bank by providing rocket know-how.

Another Dayton plan included funding and re-arming Palestinian security forces (which you criticised just a moment ago). Israel formally supported the plan.

Gen. Dayton was the initiator of the exact policy of re-arming and re-training Abbas's security forces, which you called "evil foreign influence". How come you suddenly support the Dayton plan when it fits your needs?

Israel always feared it will eventually strengthen Hamas as more arms would fall into their hands. Foreign monitors suggested in the Karni crossing are also a poor idea since no one vouches for them, and could they could not withstand the slightest attack.

Israel's predictions turned out correct. When Israel was in control of Rafah, Hamas had no long range missiles. As foreign monitors in Rafah escaped for dear life when threatened. Hamas took control of the passing and ever since, tons of ammunition has poured in.

So Israeli peace is basically shut up and take it up the ass? While Dayton was for giving money to PA security, he wasn't doing it so they'd start a civil war to get rid of Hamas as the US government was surely doing. But at the very least, he was trying to engage in some compromise, that one side or the other would have to sacrifice something... which is something Israel didn't want to do. But Israel just wants control, really. When the Palestinians are weak, they can keep their settlements in Palestine, block medical aid to weaken their enemy, etc. What horror that the Palestinians want a contiguous state? But that'd destroy Isreali control wouldn't it?

So the European monitors are now gone because they were unemployed due to Israel closing the passing? Or have they fled in fear of their own safety after the Hamas take-over?

I'd listen to their own words first to make that determination.

But if the EU doesn't want anything to do with it, and says it is a terrorist organization, and if Egypt doesn't want anything to do with it, and says it is a terrorist organization, then it must be, that according to Imran, everyone else is wrong, and Hamas is just peachy, and people should be cooperating with it.

Of course they are a terrorist organization, but so was Sinn Fein and the Brits were able to deal with them and get peace in Northern Ireland. Israel has no interest in peace.

Oh yeah - they're a murderous terrorist bunch, that has no respect for human life - including that of their own people - palestinians who disagree with them.

Which sometimes, I guess, is required when you go up against a murderous terrorist state like Israel.

[TCO]

Israel would take peace in a heartbeat. The problem is that these Pals are little savages. If they act like gentlemen, Isr would have no problem with them. But they're a bunch of couping, rocketing idiots. They're a stateless state.

And they partied after 9-11. So fvck them to hell.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Israel will only take peace if they got to lord it over their second class Palestinian slaves. Carve up their country and be able to keep their settlements in it in violation of all sorts of international law. And no one would have realized the plight of the Pals until they started lobbing rockets and killing themselves, showing the unjustness of their apartheid.

**** the Israelis, push 'em into the sea .

[TCO]

The Pals partied after 9-11.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Yeah, after they've settlemented up the West Bank. The Pals want the '67 borders. And the Clinton plan had Palestine carved into 4 separate enclaves (3 in the WB and 1 for Gaza).

[TCO]

So, the Pals should go fight for what they want. And Israel can slaughter them. Problem solved.

[Imran Siddiqui]

The Isrealis can't handle the slaughter. Constant occupation when the people are rising up to kill you is something that only the most dictatorial regimes have the stomach for. Of course with the proliferation of nuclear weapons, that may not be the greatest idea.

I guess they could engage in some old fashioned genocide, then they can become the new Hitlers.

[TCO]

Forceful migration would work as well.

Basically, the Pals are not very civilized, Imran. The Isr. are much more so. Neither one is as good as Americans of course.

[TCO]

I mean what were the Isreailis thinking settling down in the Middle East?

[TCO]

Oh and stop trying to kiss up to MarkG by saying you like the new format.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Forceful migration would work as well.

Basically, the Pals are not very civilized, Imran. The Isr. are much more so. Neither one is as good as Americans of course.

When you are treated like dogs, sometimes you begin to act like them, it's true. But terrorism isn't just a Palestinian thing. Western countries have used it quite often as well.

Forceful migration would also be more than the Isrealis could stomach... the violence during that period would be over the top.