Another Round Begins in The Middle East

[Naked Gents Rut]

For once, Naked Gents Rut (what kind of a ****ed up nickname is that by the way) is pretty much spot on.

I'm glad you agree that Belgians are mass-murdering ****s.

[TCO]

Belgium is old Europe. I just lurve that Rumsfeldianism. It's just so apt. Up there with "silky pony".

[MarkG]

please allow me to threadjack with a message of peace

Refaeli is an Israeli model, probably better known for dating Leonardo DiCaprio. She caused some controversy recently when it came out that she evaded compulsory military service in Israel, saying “Why is it good to die for our country? What, isn’t it better to live in New York?”.

you see, all problems can easily be solved

[Winston]

Two Israeli salespeople have been shot at a shopping mall here this afternoon.

Damn, this makes me angry. I don't want people who are capable of something like this in my society. But here we are.

Article on the shooting, in English

[germanos]

nm

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Winston
Two Israeli salespeople have been shot at a shopping mall here this afternoon.

Damn, this makes me angry. I don't want people who are capable of something like this in my society. But here we are.

Article on the shooting, in English

You should round up and kill around 200 Palestinians, that'd be an appropriately balanced response.

[Zkribbler]

I dunno. Shooting innocent civilians is probably not the best way to bring about peace in the region.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Please, the US funded the "security forces", ie Fatah controlled forces, in order to get them to destroy Hamas in a bloody civil war. It's classic US tactics that we've used time and time again. Funnel money to the faction we want to win, election results be damned.

So when a civil war breaks out and Hamas takes Gaza and Fatah takes the West Bank, well, of course it's a "coup", because the wrong side won!

And Salvador Allende was a Castro like dictator in the making in Chile as well!!

By your own standard, any achievement by Hamas can be labeled an Iranian funded coup. Who do you think trained their forces? Who supplied their guns?

Hamas receives millions of dollars in support from Saudi "charities", gets weapon shipments from Syria, Hezbullah and Iran. Hamas troops are sent on training missions in Iran, Lebanon and Syria.

So when the US is involved to counter that, and strengthen the legal, internationally recognized PA institutions, that is wrong?

The article you tried to pass as an objective news piece, is actually a masked editorial that originated on www.conflictsforum.org - a privately owned think tank, ran by Alistair Crook - a former EU advisor that was involved in the middle east in 2001-2003 and was kicked of his role because he was a Hamas fan-boy even way then, and constantly attempted to approach them as an EU official.

The authors have a clear agenda to legitimize Hamas and while privy to political issues, certainly have a clear agenda to put on things.

I have no idea on the sources of the times article. I have good sources of my own, and was actually quite close to the field in 2006-2007, to know that Fatah military officials were surprisingly cooperative with the Hamas appointed leadership, and Hamas quickly appointed their own strong men to all key positions.

There was certainly no successfully organized or perpetrated campaign against Hamas by Fatah, at that time. To the contrary - Hamas had a campaign to "break resistance", and capture all Fatah loyalist families and they went at them, one by one.

I can quote news sources, but I'm sure you'll remain to be unimpressed by factual events.

So why did Isreal reject the Dayton Plan as well?

There were different areas in which Gen. Dayton had plans.

The main one included creating a connection between Gaza and the West Bank. Israel objected on the grounds it will only strengthen Hamas within Gaza, and strengthen Hamas offshoots in the West Bank by providing rocket know-how.

Another Dayton plan included funding and re-arming Palestinian security forces (which you criticised just a moment ago). Israel formally supported the plan.

Gen. Dayton was the initiator of the exact policy of re-arming and re-training Abbas's security forces, which you called "evil foreign influence". How come you suddenly support the Dayton plan when it fits your needs?

Israel always feared it will eventually strengthen Hamas as more arms would fall into their hands. Foreign monitors suggested in the Karni crossing are also a poor idea since no one vouches for them, and could they could not withstand the slightest attack.

Israel's predictions turned out correct. When Israel was in control of Rafah, Hamas had no long range missiles. As foreign monitors in Rafah escaped for dear life when threatened. Hamas took control of the passing and ever since, tons of ammunition has poured in.

As feared, ll weapons and ammunition that the Palestinian security forces in Gaza received, including several eastern-bloc APCs also fell to the hands of Hamas, shortly after.

Here's what Gen. Dayton had to say in 2007 about who is stirring up what:

He said Hamas also lost the goodwill of the Palestinian people during the most recent round of violence. “Their attacks this time were particularly brutal. This brutality really backfired,” he said. “There have been numerous reports about the Friday prayer services that occurred across Gaza and how the Hamas-affiliated imams tried to stir up the Palestinian people against Fatah and were greeted with people, who walked out of the sermons or, in a few cases, actually chased the imams out of the mosque.”

O Rly?

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/10/04/news/jerus.php

There are European Union monitors stationed at Rafah, but they are threatening to quit both because of Palestinian violations of customs rules and because of the Israeli Army's activities in Gaza, which have kept the crossing shut most of the last few months.

The European monitors are insisting first that Rafah be opened normally and that it also be opened for exports from Gaza.

Custom rules and the Isreali Army's activities. Not Hamas's shooting at them.

LOLS

So the European monitors are now gone because they were unemployed due to Israel closing the passing? Or have they fled in fear of their own safety after the Hamas take-over?

Have they not been threatened by Hamas, who required them to be "vetted" and said that it would only accept international monitors who relocate to Gaza? look up on that.


How very easy it is for you to be critical. Why won't they deal with such a wonderful peaceful and democratic partner as Hamas?

I mean, fine you can blame Israel of what you want and you can say Israel is evil, one sided and what not.

But if the EU doesn't want anything to do with it, and says it is a terrorist organization, and if Egypt doesn't want anything to do with it, and says it is a terrorist organization, then it must be, that according to Imran, everyone else is wrong, and Hamas is just peachy, and people should be cooperating with it.

Poor old Hamas. What ever has it done wrong to be looked upon like that?

Oh yeah - they're a murderous terrorist bunch, that has no respect for human life - including that of their own people - palestinians who disagree with them.

Poor old Hamas.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by OzzyKP


You should round up and kill around 200 Palestinians, that'd be an appropriately balanced response.

I can see your point.

It would certainly be a balanced response to the muslim attack, which direct their anger over IDF actions at innocent civilians who are miles away from Israel, are not in the army, and have nothing to do with the whole issue.

[germanos]

Siro, Happy new Year!

(and get out of this thread for today)

[Sirotnikov]

No happy new year for me
I have a linear algebra test in 2 days so I'm trying to study instead of going out.

[Az]

*salutes Siro for effort*

[Barnabas]

The issue is that the whole thing seems very disproportionate

Hezbollah kidnaps two israeli soldiers, and in return, Israel destroys Lebanon.

Hamas fires home made missiles that kill no one, Israel kills hundreds of people and injures thousands.

I don't say Israel should not defend itself, but that is not the way.

[Dr Strangelove]

So should we blockade Israel?

[TCO]

The issue is that the whole thing seems very disproportionate

Hezbollah kidnaps two israeli soldiers, and in return, Israel destroys Lebanon.

Hamas fires home made missiles that kill no one, Israel kills hundreds of people and injures thousands.

I don't say Israel should not defend itself, but that is not the way.

Seems fair to me.

BTW, I don't see you doing anything to protect Israel. Heck, even if you like the Pals, don't see you doing anything to protect the Pals. Just whining in some parody of old Europe.

Israel: keep the pressure up.