Another Round Begins in The Middle East

[TCO]

They would be dogs either way. They behave like people and their lives will be better.

[TCO]

Forceful migration would also be more than the Isrealis could stomach... the violence during that period would be over the top.

Yeah. That's why they should keep the pressure on and do as much damage as they can while they still have popular support. No bombing pauses.

[DinoDoc]

They could have kidnapped some important Hezbollah people and exchange them for the two kidnapped soldiers. It is better than destroying Lebanon.

The only problem with the Israeli response to Hezbollah's provocation was the half arsed way they went about it. Conducting the campaign solely from the air was borderline lunacy and I'm suprised the government didn't fall because of it.

but bombing a city is unacceptable,

Indeed. Perhaps Hamas should stop doing that.

400 killed, thousands injured, a University destroyed, that is borderline terrorism.

That's what tends to happen when the defacto government of an area uses civilian areas as military staging sites for attacks on thier neighbor. What would you do when watching video of people preparing to attack your citizens?

What Hamas did (if it is Hamas the responsible for firing those home made missiles) is less serious than what happened a few months ago between Ecuador and Colombia, when the Colombian army entered into Ecuatorian territory to kill Farc terrorists hiding in the Ecuatorian jungle.

Are you drunk? Seriously? You compare taking out a terrorist base in an isolated jungle with a group launching missiles at civilian areas for the sole purpose of trying to kill said civilians. I fail to see how the 2 acts are even remotely equivilant. Perhaps you'd care to explain that one further.

Anyway given the fact that this endless merry go round of blood and destruction never seems to accomplish anything of substance for the Palestinians, one wonders why they haven't thought to try and follow the examples of MLK, Jr or Ghandi. Hell even the Irish achieved a hell of a lot once they started down the road away from terrorism. Any thoughts on why that hasn't happened?

[TCO]

People keep telling the Isr. to just "give peace a chance". Well tell the barbaric childlike Pals to. Spend your time on that, liberal pacifist Eurotrash.

[Naked Gents Rut]

ship them to Jordan.

No need to punish Jordan; they're the most reasonable of Israel's current and former enemies. Ship the Pals to Iran or Syria...

The Pals partied after 9-11.

They also supported the Nazis. **** them.

[germanos]

The calls for ethnic cleansing on this board is very disturbing :q

[Zevico]

When they are trying to start a civil war by doing so, yes.

As opposed to before? When they were simply helping Fatah repress and kill anyone that got in its way? I'm not pleased anyone is supporting Fatah. They are a collection of thugs interested in nothing more than money.


[quote]
It was quite clear to anyone paying attention at the time that the US was going to do whatever it had to get to Hamas out of power and knowing what the US tends to do in these situations, why is it so shocking that they may be trying to fund a civil war to get people they don't like out of power? Not like it hasn't happened before!! Or do you think the US became all just and moral since the Cold War?
[quote]
It was shockingly incompetent of the US to choose Fatah and support it. As Fatah are nothing more than thugs, they are not willing to fight anyone that can stand up for themselves and what they believe in and are armed. Hamas is one such force. However Hamas are also racist, totalitarian, and committed to a war against Israel until its destruction. So ending Hamas rule is desirable, but Fatah could never do the job unless Hamas was in a pile of trouble.

Of course they are a terrorist organization, but so was Sinn Fein and the Brits were able to deal with them and get peace in Northern Ireland. Israel has no interest in peace.

Was Sinn Fein doctrine that British people were, by reason of their birth, intrinsically evil?

[Sirotnikov]

It can't be worse than what they are doing now.

According to non-Israeli sources, around 75% of the people killed so far are terrorists. Israeli sources quote similar numbers.

Israel pin-pointed and destroyed hundreds of weapon caches, smuggling tunnels, and weapons laboratories, usually with very little civilian dead.

Israel also employs a unique warning system - all buildings that were targetted that also served as civilian homes were alerted by phone(!) a half hour before the strike, and pilots were instructed to check for civilians and fire warning shots.

Where applicable Israel uses rockets with a reduced payload that only destroys a single floor or a single room.

This is a very devestating campaign, but it is probably the most civilian friendly aerial campaign in history.

You're seriously claiming that kidnapping people and firing missiles randomly would be "better"?

I am not even against revenge, put a bomb in the car of some important Hamas guy responsible for the missiles, or who talks positively regarding that, even if that means his whole family will blow up too, but bombing a city is unacceptable, 400 killed, thousands injured, a University destroyed, that is borderline terrorism.

All targets are verified for terror links.
Places like universities and even mosques are used as weapon caches for missiles and heavy explosives.

Under these circumstances, those can not enjoy the protective aura of "civilian areas", because they are effectively not.

Again, according to even palestinian reports, over 300 of the dead are "militants".

What Hamas did (if it is Hamas the responsible for firing those home made missiles) is less serious than what happened a few months ago between Ecuador and Colombia, when the Colombian army entered into Ecuatorian territory to kill Farc terrorists hiding in the Ecuatorian jungle. And they managed to solve the issue peacefully.

What Hamas does has been going on steadily for almost 8 years.

Israel has attempted talks and warned Hamas several times in the days leading to the attack, suggesting renewal of the truce - which Hamas boldly ignored.

[molly bloom]

Hell even the Irish achieved a hell of a lot once they started down the road away from terrorism. Any thoughts on why that hasn't happened?

Yes, it only took an Easter Rebellion, a campaign of terrorism, a war, a further campaign of internal terrorism, and an Irish Civil War.

Then sporadic bouts of terrorism culminating in massive bombs designed to wreck the financial hub of the City Of London.

It's amazing what you can achieve in 80 or so years... still, given that Israel hasn't been around that long, there's hope yet.

Was Sinn Fein doctrine that British people were, by reason of their birth, intrinsically evil?

No, but car bombs and fire bombs tended not to discriminate between those guilty of collaboration with the British and those on holiday, or simply going about their business.

There is little room for negotiation though, until Palestinian children are not taught that Israelis and Jews are evil simply because of their existence. It took only a few decades for the British judiciary and police force to realise that not everyone with Irish blood is a

terrorist

guilty

unable to wash their hands after supposedly handling explosives.

So again, hope for Hamas yet...

[Traianvs]

The only problem with the Israeli response to
Anyway given the fact that this endless merry go round of blood and destruction never seems to accomplish anything of substance for the Palestinians, one wonders why they haven't thought to try and follow the examples of MLK, Jr or Ghandi. Hell even the Irish achieved a hell of a lot once they started down the road away from terrorism. Any thoughts on why that hasn't happened?

Imran has addressed this before: Nobody in the world would care about the situation if the Pals hadn't resisted Israel. Israel would simply claim more and more land like they've been doing for the past 50 year. I'm not condoning the violence as I don't think it's the right answer, but the armed resistance is merely a natural result of Israel's occupation. I guess everybody can agree at on that part.

[Sirotnikov]

ד

When they are trying to start a civil war by doing so, yes.

who started the civil war?
Was it the side that is legally in charge (PA), or is it the side that captured presidential assets from the legal president? The side that destroyed the legal PA forces in Gaza and set up his own militia?

You're often yapping about international law, and yet when a muslim party financed and supported by foreign sources, violently overthrows the legal, internationally recognized government bodies, you claim that it was the legal government that started the civil war?

What examples do you have of Fatah persecuting or murdering Hamas members in 2007 that lead to this Hamas "response"?

So you are telling me to ignore my biased article in favor of your biased view. Don't think so.

I quote respected news outlets when I can. You quoted a self proclaimed "talk with Hamas" lobby, that is written by an acknowledged pro-Hamas western activist.
Hmmm...

It was quite clear to anyone paying attention at the time that the US was going to do whatever it had to get to Hamas out of power and knowing what the US tends to do in these situations, why is it so shocking that they may be trying to fund a civil war to get people they don't like out of power? Not like it hasn't happened before!! Or do you think the US became all just and moral since the Cold War?

"Not like it hasn't happened before!!" is irrelevant. You're continually attempting to have a "what if" "may be" argument, like 911 conspiracy folks.

The US financed and supported the legal government arms of the Palestinian Authority. It did so as part of an internationally accepted agenda, in attempt to strengthen Palestinian government to assist them to gain self rule, after several years the security forces were decimated.

This policy was supported by the Quartet, and had seen help from the Russians, Jordanians, Egyptians and British governments.

Your attempt to twist history to fabricate a justification for the Hamas coup against the legal and internationally recognized bodies of the PA, is very sad, and quite alarming.

You are constantly raising the point that the forces were a threat to Hamas, but you are forgetting that the Hamas is a party with its own huge militia, while the PA and its forces and institutions, are the elected legitimate government.

So Israeli peace is basically shut up and take it up the ass? While Dayton was for giving money to PA security, he wasn't doing it so they'd start a civil war to get rid of Hamas as the US government was surely doing.

What are you smoking? Dayton is the US government.
He's the one that pioneered the plan which you criticize next.

But at the very least, he was trying to engage in some compromise, that one side or the other would have to sacrifice something... which is something Israel didn't want to do. But Israel just wants control, really.

What does sacrifice has to do with anything?
A good plan has to meet specific goals such as security for Israel, well being for the palestinians, a strict control of terrorist organizations.

Measuring a plan by the amount of sacrifice each side makes is silly.

When the Palestinians are weak, they can keep their settlements in Palestine, block medical aid to weaken their enemy, etc. What horror that the Palestinians want a contiguous state? But that'd destroy Isreali control wouldn't it?

You live in a dream land.

Let's concentrate on the Gaza strip- why would Israel want to continue control of the Gaza strip? Why would it want to be involved? What evil devious plans does it have to constantly starve palestinians?

Ever since Israel unilaterally left Gaza, it's only interest is securing it's Gaza border. This is something which Hamas constantly intentionally risked and violated. This is what brought more and more Israeli attacks and control.
Any time it could be sufficiently rely on security issues, Israel left the control to someone else - be it Egypt, the European monitors or anyone else.

Among the options discussed in Israel today is how can we get a good enough international security force mandate so we could give them the keys to the Gaza strip, once we finish this war.

Your idea that Israel is somehow bent on spending billions just to spite and humiliate the Gaza inhabitants, intentionally provoking Hamas, after it cleared all its settlements there, and all its interests there, is absolutely insane.

I'd listen to their own words first to make that determination.

I read their words, and I also know the facts on the ground.
Do you even know what the organization is called? Where to find their website?
Google EU-BAM.

Of course they are a terrorist organization, but so was Sinn Fein and the Brits were able to deal with them and get peace in Northern Ireland. Israel has no interest in peace.

They are not like Sinn Fein.
They come from a different culture and they have absolutely different motives.

The brits dealt with them after they spend a good half a century breaking their bones. Hamas's growth suprts coincided with each consecutive step Israel took to disengage from the Gaza strip. Hamas wants to get jews out of Israel proper. Sinn Fein had no claims for London.

Which sometimes, I guess, is required when you go up against a murderous terrorist state like Israel.

[DinoDoc]

Imran has addressed this before: Nobody in the world would care about the situation if the Pals hadn't resisted Israel.

The fact people care hasn't achieved anything of substance so far. You could argue that it forced the Israelis out of Gaza but that looks like its going to be a short term gain rather than a long term one given the actions of Hamas. So I ask again what have terror tactics achieved of any lasting value for the Palestinian people other than more dead Palestinians?

[Traianvs]

The fact people care hasn't achieved anything of substance so far. You could argue that it forced the Israelis out of Gaza but that looks like its going to be a short term gain rather than a long term one given the actions of Hamas. So I ask again what have terror tactics achieved of any lasting value for the Palestinian people other than more dead Palestinians?

Bear in mind that the dead Palestinians are martyrs for them. Officially, the greater objective of achieving independance is more important to them.
I'm quite sure Israel would have increased the number of colonies in Palestinian areas drastically if the Palestinians hadn't started the violence.

The more people care the better for them. The Palestinians civil servants are basically paid by the EU, and the conflict is the talk of the town for many a year. If they did nothing, they would get driven out by Israel. It would've made things a lot easier I agree, but that doesn't make the ethnic cleansing moreally or legally justifiable and neither does it mean the Palestinians don't have a legitimate claim to their land.

Maybe if they agreed to be assimilated into Israel it wouldn't have been much of a problem, but just like everyone else on this planet, people hold on to their own culture, traditions and way of life. Some people otoh, just want to hold on to power of course.

[rah]

Maybe if they agreed to be assimilated into Israel it wouldn't have been much of a problem, but just like everyone else on this planet, people hold on to their own culture, traditions and way of life. Some people otoh, just want to hold on to power of course.

I have to disagree with this. Millions and millions of imigrants to the US agreed to be assimilated and DID NOT have to give up their own culture and way of life. The choose to do so and benefited greatly. And even more important, each new wave contributed it's own small piece to the overall community making the whole better. It's all a matter of choice.

[DinoDoc]

I'm quite sure Israel would have increased the number of colonies in Palestinian areas drastically if the Palestinians hadn't started the violence.

You're making a wrong assumption IMO. I don't think Israel has any real need for the territory outside of a wartime footing which peace would remove) nor do I think that they want to deal with Palestinians as citizens as it would harm the nature of the state as being Jewish.

The more people care the better for them.

In what substantive way has this caring advanced the goal of liberation advanced the goal of Palestinian liberation? It seems to me that the tactic of worshipping at the altar of Khorne has achieved nothing other than causing the blood of thier own people to run through ther streets.