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  • Originally posted by rah View Post
    I have to disagree with this. Millions and millions of imigrants to the US agreed to be assimilated and DID NOT have to give up their own culture and way of life. The choose to do so and benefited greatly. And even more important, each new wave contributed it's own small piece to the overall community making the whole better. It's all a matter of choice.
    The USA is a completely different case. People migrate to the States in small groups (families) and they are willingly doing so. In Israel millions of Palestines would have to be assimilated all at once and without their real consent.

    Also, the US is very multi-ethnic which is probably beneficial. Any other country with 2 dominant ethnic or linguistic groups have problems or at least issues that need to be tackled periodically. In advanced democracies like Belgium or Canada these probs can be addressed peacefully. It's not that clear-cut when you have to deal with a difficult history such as the one in Israel.
    "An archaeologist is the best husband a women can have; the older she gets, the more interested he is in her." - Agatha Christie
    "Non mortem timemus, sed cogitationem mortis." - Seneca

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    • IT's only difficult when people want to kill each other. Or deny them the right to exist, (both sides) Both sides here seem to play up that hate so a peaceful result is hard to reach. To hate and want to kill is a CHOICE that people make for themselves so they have themselves to blame.
      It's almost as if all his overconfident, absolutist assertions were spoonfed to him by a trusted website or subreddit. Sheeple
      RIP Tony Bogey & Baron O

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      • Originally posted by Traianvs View Post
        I'm not condoning the violence as I don't think it's the right answer, but the armed resistance is merely a natural result of Israel's occupation.
        This seems like a mixed up sentence. I understand that you would prefer the Palestinians to be non-violent. That's clear enough. What do you mean by natural result? Is it natural like gravity? A fundamental physical law, action and reaction. Or is it natural like a guy losing at poker going home and beating his wife to a pulp? Understandable at a primal level, but not something we accept in the civilized world.

        It seems clear to me that one side is taking every precaution towards preserving civilian life, while the other has absolutely no regard for human life. Killing 400 people in a dense urbanized area, with only 25% of the dead being civilians has to be one of the best air bombardments in history. Hamas meanwhile, is so incompetent they kill their own people with their rockets almost as often as they kill Israelis. There is good and evil in the world, and you can see both on display in Gaza.

        If there were a movie where one side made it a point not to kill civilians, and the other side willingly sacrificed its own people out of blind hatred, I'd think it was some corny unrealistic bull****. In Gaza it's just the way life is.
        John Brown did nothing wrong.

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        • I'll take up the role of devil's advocate...

          Originally posted by Felch View Post
          This seems like a mixed up sentence. I understand that you would prefer the Palestinians to be non-violent. That's clear enough. What do you mean by natural result? Is it natural like gravity? A fundamental physical law, action and reaction. Or is it natural like a guy losing at poker going home and beating his wife to a pulp? Understandable at a primal level, but not something we accept in the civilized world.
          You want me to list the 1000+ historical examples of tribes and peoples organising armed resistance because they are occupied? Europeans resisted the Germans during WWII, with the immense military aid of the British and the Americans. The Pals just have some meagre support from Iran through Syria. Europeans as well as Germans were civilized enough, but went to war anyway. War isn't about being civilized or not, it's a human trait.

          It seems clear to me that one side is taking every precaution towards preserving civilian life, while the other has absolutely no regard for human life. Killing 400 people in a dense urbanized area, with only 25% of the dead being civilians has to be one of the best air bombardments in history. Hamas meanwhile, is so incompetent they kill their own people with their rockets almost as often as they kill Israelis. There is good and evil in the world, and you can see both on display in Gaza.
          Hamas killed two citizens and one soldier, while Israel killed a lot more. Qassam rockets are nothing more than a 'terror'-weapon, but its practical use is very limited, because they can hardly be aimed properly. Hamas doesn't have the capabilities to kill high ranking IDF military or important politicians. Israel can easily take out anyone they want provided they have some intel. Hamas would likely want to kill the top dogs like Israel does, but they can't. Don't try to twist this as a good vs evil story - it isn't. Besides the issue is not about whether or not these bombardments are the most civilian friendly ever. That is irrelevant, because Israel has killed far more Pals than the other way around.

          (I agree it's a good thing Israel tries to limit civilian casualties as much as possible, but it still kills a lot more civilians than Hamas does).


          If there were a movie where one side made it a point not to kill civilians, and the other side willingly sacrificed its own people out of blind hatred, I'd think it was some corny unrealistic bull****. In Gaza it's just the way life is.
          You're right that Hamas is willing to sacrifice people out of pure hatred. With a little bit of empathy you might understand why. Israel as a whole oppresses them and keeps them caged in a miserable strip of land. Also they have some sort of tradition of self-sacrifice. I frown upon it too, but there it is.
          "An archaeologist is the best husband a women can have; the older she gets, the more interested he is in her." - Agatha Christie
          "Non mortem timemus, sed cogitationem mortis." - Seneca

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          • A thought:

            Israel is doing some uncharacteristic things this time. Bombing mosques with weapon caches for example (instead of sparing them due to religious sensibilities), and generally being much less scared of high numbers of enemy casualties (remember how a week ago everyone were surprised that there were about 40 Palestinian dead at the beginning?).

            Is this a result of the Russia-Georgia war? When another advanced nation fought a war much more ruthlessly than Israel was used to in the last decade, and thanks to that the world is more ready to accept a higher intensity of violence?
            "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master" - Commissioner Pravin Lal.

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            • Originally posted by DinoDoc View Post
              You're making a wrong assumption IMO. I don't think Israel has any real need for the territory outside of a wartime footing which peace would remove) nor do I think that they want to deal with Palestinians as citizens as it would harm the nature of the state as being Jewish.
              Why then have the Israeli grabbed land ever since 1967? Remember Israel is a democracy, but there’s a large portion of religious fundamentalists who want to drive the Pals into the sea just like Hamas wants to drive Jews into the sea. These people want the entire biblical territory of Israel (and possibly even Jordan).

              Water is scarce in the Middle-East. The wall around the West Bank has grabbed more 'strategic' land than the official borders warrant. Quite often these water sources are 'strategically' incorporated in the Israel side of the wall.

              Why do you think Israel has been building colonies in Palestine territory? Like the ethnic Han-Chinese migrating into Tibet and Xinjiang, getting your own people up there provides a handy fait accompli. Despite being internationally unlawful, it would be difficult to have all those colonies dismantled. Remember wat Sharon did in Gaza a few years ago, and that was only about 9000 people iirc. That the Palestinian refugees in the neighbouring countries will never be able to retun home is another fait accompli.

              The more people care the better for them. In what substantive way has this caring advanced the goal of liberation advanced the goal of Palestinian liberation? It seems to me that the tactic of worshipping at the altar of Khorne has achieved nothing other than causing the blood of thier own people to run through ther streets.
              It hasn't helped much, Israel is a far better military power. I don't know how exactly the situation would be if there hadn't been any violence ever.

              That said there's been violence since the Sykes-Picot agreement. It's endemic to the conflict. There was terrorism on both sides when Israel was founded. Irgun, the Stern Gang etc bombed the British as well as the Pals. What’s your opinion on that then? Israel was built on terrorism and war. Afterwards it just happened to get the upper hand.
              "An archaeologist is the best husband a women can have; the older she gets, the more interested he is in her." - Agatha Christie
              "Non mortem timemus, sed cogitationem mortis." - Seneca

              Comment


              • It is official. The ground offensive has begun. This is going to be bloody beyond anything we got used to in this conflict.
                "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master" - Commissioner Pravin Lal.

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                • Originally posted by Eli View Post
                  Is this a result of the Russia-Georgia war? When another advanced nation fought a war much more ruthlessly than Israel was used to in the last decade, and thanks to that the world is more ready to accept a higher intensity of violence?

                  Why would the world be more ready to accept a higher intensity of violence? I think the trend of the few decades is of a declining intensity, despite a growing number of conflicts. From the Peace and Conflict ledger 2005:



                  Especially interstate wars have become rather scarce. The world has definately become a safer place since the cold war ended. Thanks Mr. Gorbachov

                  Anyway, the propensity of societal warfare (like in Israel) has increased. Old nationstates are not as powerful anymore. More and more regions, peoples or even ethnic tribal groups want more autonomy. That can sometimes be solved peacfully (Catalunya, Flanders, Corsica... to name a few European examples) or not (Northern Ireland, Basques), but what's for certain: there is a growing chance of getting what you want:



                  In recent years the succes ratio has increased.

                  Anyway, I'm not sure people are ready for more intense fighting. My feeling was rather the opposite.
                  "An archaeologist is the best husband a women can have; the older she gets, the more interested he is in her." - Agatha Christie
                  "Non mortem timemus, sed cogitationem mortis." - Seneca

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                  • Originally posted by Traianvs View Post
                    Why then have the Israeli grabbed land ever since 1967?
                    Recent events should have informed you that the state of conflict still exists. As for Israel being unwilling to lop off large parts of its territory when a state of peace exists, need I remind you of the territory ceeded back to Eygpt when they agreed to a peace treaty?
                    Why do you think Israel has been building colonies in Palestine territory?
                    To create a defensible line in the event of another war.

                    I don't know how exactly the situation would be if there hadn't been any violence ever.
                    I'm fairly certain that the results for the Palestinians if they tried going down the path of non-violent resistance couldn't help but be better for them than the picture we're seeing playing out on the news atm. I'd even be willing to argue that given the democratic nature of the Israeli state that they would have made more progress toward liberating thier people.

                    What’s your opinion on that then?
                    That people should stop asking stupid questions. It's the mark of a child when one seeks to excuse bad behavior with other bad behavior.
                    I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                    For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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                    • Originally posted by Eli View Post
                      It is official. The ground offensive has begun. This is going to be bloody beyond anything we got used to in this conflict.
                      It's definitely going to be bloody, but I think that it's not gonna be nearly as bloody as you think. We really tend to overestimate Hamas, and underestimate our troops and our intelligence.

                      You mustn't forget that we had a lot of time to prepare for this war, and we used it well.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Felch View Post
                        It seems clear to me that one side is taking every precaution towards preserving civilian life, while the other has absolutely no regard for human life. Killing 400 people in a dense urbanized area, with only 25% of the dead being civilians has to be one of the best air bombardments in history.
                        Looking into the eyes of my little girl, I can tell you that if a bomb - any bomb - would kill/harm her i would not rest until i got my revenge...

                        multiply this by several thousands and you get an idea of the magnitutde of the problem.

                        when in several weeks the dust settles and the glorious military goals have been achieved, do you think this kind of resentment will go away?
                        "Ceterum censeo Ben esse expellendum."

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sirotnikov View Post
                          It's definitely going to be bloody, but I think that it's not gonna be nearly as bloody as you think. We really tend to overestimate Hamas, and underestimate our troops and our intelligence.

                          You mustn't forget that we had a lot of time to prepare for this war, and we used it well.
                          Well then, i hope that you make it through alive and that you don't make too much mistakes when selecting targets
                          "Ceterum censeo Ben esse expellendum."

                          Comment


                          • To create a defensible line in the event of another war.
                            Do you not know what is happening? The Pals are weak and locked up in their pitiful cities. Israel holds all the military power. Israel is not on the defensive here. And I fail to see what good those settlements would do in the event of another war. They would be suitable, isolated targets for enemies. They cost a gigantic amount of money right now, imagine the cost of holding them during a full-scale war. I'm no war-strategist, but I suppose my reasoning on this is quite sound.

                            I'm fairly certain that the results for the Palestinians if they tried going down the path of non-violent resistance couldn't help but be better for them than the picture we're seeing playing out on the news atm. I'd even be willing to argue that given the democratic nature of the Israeli state that they would have made more progress toward liberating thier people.
                            There's a good chance Pals could have lived in peace if they hadn't taken up the terrorism. But you might want to read up on the history of the region of the past 120 years or so. For eons the conflict has been one of action-reaction. There's an unbroken lineage of revenge on bother sides since way back. That Pals would just sit idly and watch how their lands were taken, their property confiscated and most of their population ethnically cleansed is borderline idiocy.

                            That people should stop asking stupid questions. It's the mark of a child when one seeks to excuse bad behavior with other bad behavior.
                            No no no. You fail to see the analogy then. So Jews are allowed to carve out their own state using terrorism, but the Pals are not? That's badass one-sided thinking if I ever heard it. I've stated several times that violence isn't the answer. Just trying to understand the reasoning behind both parties' actions.
                            Last edited by Traianvs; January 3, 2009, 17:09.
                            "An archaeologist is the best husband a women can have; the older she gets, the more interested he is in her." - Agatha Christie
                            "Non mortem timemus, sed cogitationem mortis." - Seneca

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                            • Meh.

                              It seems that Israel sustained it's first casualties. At least that's what I can gleam from innuendos on the news.
                              "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master" - Commissioner Pravin Lal.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by dannubis View Post
                                Looking into the eyes of my little girl, I can tell you that if a bomb - any bomb - would kill/harm her i would not rest until i got my revenge...
                                you say this, and then you expect Israel to not respond when it is constantly showered with Qassam and BM-21 Grad
                                rockets?

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