Another Round Begins in The Middle East

[Sirotnikov]

Let's return to the original argument about the current war though.

I remember people raising the point of why is Israel targetting Hamas "governmental" security/policing forces as well as it's terrorist brigades.

I just wanted to show that there is no significant difference between the two. They act in unison and perform the orders of a single fanatical leadership.

[TCO]

I bet Siro likes revisionist historians like Peters.

[Naked Gents Rut]

Your descriptions make it sound like there was harmony and butterflies, and then suddenly the Jews went amok on civilians to drive them out.

This is a little hard to swallow given that I've already said that the Palestinian Arabs were the aggressors in this very thread. Just one more invention on your part, I guess.

As a side note, I find it amazing that you can write so much and yet say so little. I can't tell if you're just naturally verbose or if you think a mass of text will make your dishonest and silly arguments seem more credible.

[Sirotnikov]

As a side note, I find it amazing that you can write so much and yet say so little. I can't tell if you're just naturally verbose or if you think a mass of text will make your dishonest and silly arguments seem more credible.

i tend to repeat my argument in simpler and simpler terms in hope that it will eventually get through

Also I'm verbose.
You should have noticed before.

[TCO]

I don't really even remember Drake that much other than Kitty loved him and he was funny. But he rocks!!!

[Naked Gents Rut]

Drake is an *******. I came here to get away from him.

[Sirotnikov]

****.
i had a reply destroyed by evil poly.

This is a little hard to swallow given that I've already said that the Palestinian Arabs were the aggressors in this very thread. Just one more invention on your part, I guess.

Basically our argument is about the definition of what constitutes forced or induced evacuation versus what is a persons own initiative.

my argument is dead simple:
if a person concretely threatens another person of forcefully evicts him - it's coerced
if a person fears a retribution from one of the sides in an ongoing conflict and flees - it's his own damn initiative.

You have so far brought little evidence to support your argument, and evaded any attempt to put your definitions in terms which can be objectively measured and then tested- proven or disproven.

Every time I attempted to put your arguments to a test, you've accused me of straw-men and stretched your definitions just a little more to engulf more jewish activity in the definition of violence, and less in the definition of a persons free choise.

We started arguing about palestinians being physically forced out, or fleeing the threat of certain eviction/massacre. Later you included the general threat of being a target of an Irgun reprisal attack (the more notorious of which, during the civil war period targeted large cities like Haifa and Jaffa in which case eviction is not a real threat) to the more lax definition "You can pretend all you want that the Jews did nothing that would frighten and drive out the Arabs before April".

So the coercion of Palestinian free will was stretched from a definition including haganah forecefully putting people on trucks in the first post, you've basically stretched to "anything the Jews did that would fright the Arabs and give them reason leave". Yeah, that's coerced evacuation right there.


It is perfectly understandable that the Palestinians would flee an area where they are in danger of Jewish reprisals. This does not justify putting blame on the Israeli side for 200K having left. The same exact threat of reprisal existed for the Jewish population, who suffered no less reprisals and full blown massacres at the hands of arab gangs. This does not, in any reasonable definition fall under coerced eviction. Any choise a person makes in that admittedly dangerous situation, still remains his own initiative and free will.

Leaving is something which they thought would be a good idea. Not something they were coerced to do. And it's an important difference.

[Naked Gents Rut]

I haven't changed my argument at all since the beginning. My argument has always been that the vast majority of Arabs who fled Palestine during the 1948 War did so because they were either evicted forcibly by the Jews or feared future attack, eviction or massacre. I stand by that statement, which is supported by the historical record.

You've been trying to narrow my argument and ascribe further arguments to me that were never made, so that you might have a chance of justifying your stupid contention that Jewish attacks on Arabs were in no way responsible for the massive outflow of Arabs from Palestine over the course of the 1948 War. It's not working.

[Sirotnikov]

You are now misrepresenting your argument by removing the context.

Your argument in context was an attempt to counter my position: that vast numbers of palestinians fled on their own initiative and prior to the beginning of the 48 war in spring. I share the view that it happened due to the increasing jewish-arab hostilities, but without Israeli coercion.

"feared future attack, eviction or massacre." = their own initiative. as i stated before, it's a question of choise for each side. At the same period of time we are talking about, Jews also feared future attack eviction or massacre. Infact they had more reason to fear, since Arab leaders often expressed intentions to commit exactly that, after the partition declaration.

Jews chose to not run away in droves. Those who did, did so by their own choise, and I would not dream of claiming anyone coerced them to do so.

Your argument was also, that the amount of Arabs who left on their own initiative, prior to the war, was very small.

That has been disproven, by the fact that close to 200K people left in a time period before Israel began major offensive operations. During that time Israeli attacks aimed at overtaking arab population centers people were not prominent. During that time you can not demonstrate a pattern of forced expulsions or concrete threats in that spirit made to arab population centers.

In the absence of such steps, your labels of "forced evictions" is unapplicable prior April 1948.

For the same time period, there is little proof of concrete Jewish steps that could reasonably create mass fear of eviction or massacre.

You've talked alot about how what you say is obviously true, yet you've brought no examples.

[Arrian]

Oh bull****, Siro.

Evict/massacre a couple of villages and then blame people in other villages for fleeing? It was their choice, eh?

The Palestinians - the vast majority of them anyway - were blameless and got ****ed by everyone else involved. Choice? Harrumph.

-Arrian

[fed1943]

I have not great opinion about Pals (not Arabs) but that "free will" thing is funny...
So, the Jews who flew from Nazi Germany did it by free will, right?
Best regards,

[Naked Gents Rut]

Your argument in context was an attempt to counter my position: that vast numbers of palestinians fled on their own initiative and prior to the beginning of the 48 war in spring.

The major problem with this position is that the 1948 War began in December 1947.

"feared future attack, eviction or massacre." = their own initiative.

No reasonable person would agree with this definition.

Jews chose to not run away in droves. Those who did, did so by their own choise, and I would not dream of claiming anyone coerced them to do so.

Tell that to the survivors of the Etzion Bloc.

You've talked alot about how what you say is obviously true, yet you've brought no examples.

Sorry, but I'm not going to waste my time detailing the numerous Jewish attacks on Arabs from December 1947 to April 1948 for the benefit of someone who won't even accept that Arabs who flee their villages in fear of attack aren't leaving on their own initiative. Show me that you can be reasonable and fair and maybe I'll spoon feed you some more of your country's history.

[Monk]

TCO is right: Unless you are Dutch, in the Anglosphere, or possibly French, you are a ****ing worthless member of NATO.

Dude, give Denmark a little credit, would ya? Or if not generally, then at least our dudes in Afghanistan. I'm fairly sure that relative to country size they have endured significantly more casualties than any other continental Europeans.

[Naked Gents Rut]

The Danes have indeed gone above and beyond the call of duty.

[BlackCat]

Dude, give Denmark a little credit, would ya? Or if not generally, then at least our dudes in Afghanistan. I'm fairly sure that relative to country size they have endured significantly more casualties than any other continental Europeans.

Not only having casualities but also making some good fighting results.

On the serbian note - while yanks was flying high :

http://www.milhist.dk/post45/boellebank/boellebank_uk.htm