Another Round Begins in The Middle East

[Sirotnikov]

The Arab immigration before the civil war was minuscule in comparison to that which took place after the war started. What's the point of limiting yourself to explaining an irrelevant prelude while ignoring the more consequential main event that followed?

Around 200,000 left in the months preceding the war. The major wave started around december 2007 and continued in large numbers even before Deir Yassin in April.
Most by their own choise, out of fear of consequences of full scale war.

I saw the numbers on Israeli sites and was unsure, but a similar number appeared on arab sources as well.

Example arab source:

http://www.aljazeerah.info/Opinion%20editorials/2006%20Opinion%20Editorials/May/16%20o/Frequently%20Asked%20Questions%20About%20the%201948%20Palestinian%20Catastrophe,%20Al-Nakba%20By%20MIFTAH.htm

A quote attributed to the commander of Jordanian forces in 1948:

"Villages were frequently abandoned even before they were threatened by the progress of war" (London Daily Mail)

[Naked Gents Rut]

Around 200,000 left in the months preceding the war.
Most by their own choise, out of fear of consequences of war.

Siro, your own link says nothing about 200,000 Arabs fleeing Palestine before the war started. It says 175-200,000 Arabs had fled by May 3rd of 1948, six months after the war had begun. The vast majority of Arabs fled after the civil war broke out at the end of November, 1947, mainly as a result of Jewish action or the fear of them.

The major wave started around december 2007 and continued in large numbers even before Deir Yassin in April.

The war also began in December 1947. Wow, what a coincidence...

[TCO]

Recover the Sudtirol! The Italians bamboozled Wilson!

[TCO]

I took a course in Middle East History once. It was pretty cool and the teacher was funny as he was this old duck who used to tell us how TV was spoiling our generation and then regale us with all sorts of critiques of the popular shows (and as underclassmen, we had no ability to watch TV anyhow). Towards the end of the course, there was this big bslitz of information of different treaties and such related to dividing up the Levant. I kinda tuned out.

[Unimatrix11]

Well, i think the chinese should move people en masse into israel. And then claim the whole thing. If they are stronger and supported better, then, following the arguments of some posters here, they have every right to deport the israeli people. Oh, yeah, and the jews guilty of the holocaust as well - after all, they could have resisted, lobbied, and whatnot, right? They were the ´losers´, the ´weaker side´, and thus deserved it, or what? I refuse to regard such a chain or argumentation as conservative - it is anarchistic, barbaric and highly unchristian.

The jewish exodus to palestine had no legitimite base whatsoever. They were not entitled to rule a single square inch of that land. Not by the holocaust and not by some ancient texts. If anyone had to give them land, it would have been the germans. Now the palestines can eat the crap we poured on the jews, or what? What they wanted from the british was their independence - just like any other colony/mandate territory. What they got was another usurpor, which follows a policy like the teutonic knights in the baltic.

On one hand, some people here say ´they are too weak to resist, so they must go´ and then claim that they do not even have a right to try to resist in the first place anyway. And then they call other people biased. If justice counted, it clearly were the israelis who had to try to achieve acceptance by their neighbors and ask for things. If they were not accepted, if the land they got was not granted to them by those who used to live there, it would be upto them to leave again. And if i was to make stereotypes out of the whole mess, like some people here do, i´d say ´never let a jew as a guest in your living room - you might end up having to fight for your house against him and his folks he calls to follow him.´ You can not rightfully colonize a land that already feeds a people. Period.

What you can do is ask if you can get some. If you do, be happy and thankful - if you dont, go where you came from (or somewhere else). It doesnt matter if it´s about a private house or a whole country - you cant just move there and take what you like. Thats what Hitler tried to do with Russia. Just as a reminder. It was wrong back then, it is wrong today. No matter who is stronger. Justice is when strength doesnt count.

[Unimatrix11]

Dp

[Felch]

The Jewish exodus to Palestine is rooted in the Balfour Declaration, a historic tie to the land, the right to property (bear in mind that proto-Zionists purchased much of the land that was "stolen"), and the fact that they simply can't trust Europeans not to engage in wholesale murder. That might not convince you, but it doesn't need to. As long as Europe is too decadent and cowardly to fight for what it believes in, it will remain irrelevant. So don't be surprised when the world ignores your street protests and childish tantrums.

[Unimatrix11]

It was an american who said ´There such a thing as being to proud to fight´. He said that in a time, when all of europe was stuck in a stalemate, fighting for what it believed in.

I reject the Balfour declaration as a document from a colonial power decreeing on a colony. It thus holds no relevance to justice.

The historic tie argument could as well be used for germany and silesia. Or sicily for that matter. It´s the reason why i dont advocate the destruction of israel. They are there now, and that is the situation from which to work on (just like silesia is polish now). My previous post was just to clarifiy the cause for the dispute - not a proposal for it´s solution.

The right to property does not entail the right for legislation (or deposing your neighbors of that right). Also, the circumstances under which property is gained must be taken into consideration. And i dont want to even get to the point here, questioning the right to property, which one could (and occasionally should). Mallorca is still spanish, despite the fact, that most of the property there is held be germans and english (i assume). It would be an outrage if any of the two would strive to annex the island from spain.

I can only think of one occasion where europeans didnt fight when they should have: Srebrenica. That´s it. Other than that, europeans did way too much fighting for what they believed in. Cause that usually entails fighting people who dont believe in what you believe in. Now that´s what i call chlidish. If we dont get your noses into every single mess around the world these days, it derives from experience. The palestian conflict being an excellent example. Apparently the US will have to have a couple of more Vietnams and Afghanistans and Iraqs to come to the same conclusion. Talking about maturing, you know...

And i stand to my point: The ones to decide how many jews were allowed to migrate to palestine should have been the palestinsians (just like everywhere else), and no one else.

Let´s have the US open it´s mexican border, have all the mexicans come in. Have them claim their own state and in the following decades settle the whole pacific area. Imagine Gaza was L.A., Kansas the west-banks. The mexicans sure have historic ties there, right ? So then they need some other (third) country draft some document saying that they may do this. Chavez would, i guess. So check on that one, too. Now they need some russian oil-tycoons to buy a lot of american property there. Check three. The US would have to cede the whole west, and Mexico would have the right to deport all the yankees to the east. Or would it ? Well, one thing is for sure: The eurpeans would be to pansy to do anything about it.

EDIT: BTW, the holocaust was comitted, because some people were convinced in it and BELIEVED it to be the right thing to do and were not too ´coward´ or ´decadent´ to execute it. If europe had not changed it´s attitude towards the use of force and violence, and would fight for what it believes to be right, the US (and israel) would probably have a lot harder time playing the game they play. Yes, we do consider ourselves beyond that. By our own history, we learned that nothing lasting can be gained from force. We, and especially the germans, now regard it as our mission to prevent violence. We germans have put so much guilt on our shoulders (not so much because of the wars, but because of the holocaust) that i, myself, when talking to a jew abroad, try to conceal the fact, that i am german. It makes me feel deeply ashamed. I feel the need to apologize for what i didnt do, all the time. I just dont want any other people to slip into the same track and put such a burden on themselves and their following generations. We europeans are the fathers of all modern nations - we have more experience than they do. We went through and caused a lot of pain during our maturing period. We just want to prevent others from having to go through the same mire. But we cannot force them to. They need to choose they own path. That is my (supra-)national idendity. Thats how i see myself as a european and german. A long shot from Wilhelm II., uh ? Well, that´s because of what was in between. Bypass that ´in between´!

[germanos]

Now that Gaza has all but been freed/conquered/occupied, what will Israel do next with it? There's no viable palestinian rule possible, since the elected government (hamas) is at the root of the conflict. More elections therefore do not seem a good idea either. Any other palestion group/faction taking charge of Gaza will be seen as collaborators/traitors and working against democracy/the will of the people. The same will go for any Arab government taking charge of Gaza (as has been the case since '48)

Deportation of the palestinians, although wished by some, do not seem a viable option either: neighbouring countries have allready adopted plenty of them in the past decades, so short of driving the pals over the borders with tanks in their backs, it's not going to happen. Not to mention that Gaza harbours a lot of refugees/volutary emigrants from Israel proper allready, merely showing that deportation doesn't bring a solution from terrorism in the first place.

The international community, be it the UN or any other unilateral/multinational effort, won't be to keen to get involved. The UN, scoffed by many, is impotent as there's allways somebody trying to screw their efforts up. It doesn't really matter who is trying to screw up what. It doesn't really help that Israel doesn't really give a turd about the UN anyway.

The EU, scoffed by the US-ians and Israel, won't be keen either. After 'Oslo' they invested heavily into getting Gaza and the Westbank some economic leverage under the motto: 'if people have something to loose, they won't be so stupid as to wage all they got'. This has not worked out: all investments in economic infrastructure have bore no fruit. It doesn't really help that Israel doesn't give a turd about Europe anyway, unless it's the eurovision song-contest.

The US has it's hands full of other conflicts, let alone the fact that they won't be receiving a warm welcome in Gaza or the westbank in any case. So, with all it's militairy, politic and economic might, the US is as impotent as the UN is.

So, that leaves Israel itself:
What are they going to do with Gaza? Do they have any clue?

[rah]

(bear in mind that proto-Zionists purchased much of the land that was "stolen")

Could you expand on this part a bit. This is something that I havent' heard before and would love to know more about it so when everyone is throwing around the "STOLEN" term I can keep things in perspective.

[Felch]

I reject the Balfour declaration as a document from a colonial power decreeing on a colony. It thus holds no relevance to justice.

It was actually the UK making a promise to an indigenous group in return for fighting a colonial power (the Turks). But go ahead and reject it. The real reason it should be rejected is that it was contradicted by other promises made to the Arabs.

The historic tie argument could as well be used for germany and silesia. Or sicily for that matter. It´s the reason why i dont advocate the destruction of israel. They are there now, and that is the situation from which to work on (just like silesia is polish now). My previous post was just to clarifiy the cause for the dispute - not a proposal for it´s solution.

Irredentism is insufficient as a sole reason for conquest. But it shouldn't be ignored when it comes to a group claiming legitimacy.

The right to property does not entail the right for legislation (or deposing your neighbors of that right). Also, the circumstances under which property is gained must be taken into consideration. And i dont want to even get to the point here, questioning the right to property, which one could (and occasionally should). Mallorca is still spanish, despite the fact, that most of the property there is held be germans and english (i assume). It would be an outrage if any of the two would strive to annex the island from spain.

I completely disagree. People have the fundamental right to determine how they are governed. Governments are instituted by the people to preserve and protect their rights. So if the Anglo-German residents of Mallorca want an Anglo-German government, why shouldn't they have that right?

I can only think of one occasion where europeans didnt fight when they should have: Srebrenica. That´s it. Other than that, europeans did way too much fighting for what they believed in. Cause that usually entails fighting people who dont believe in what you believe in. Now that´s what i call chlidish. If we dont get your noses into every single mess around the world these days, it derives from experience. The palestian conflict being an excellent example. Apparently the US will have to have a couple of more Vietnams and Afghanistans and Iraqs to come to the same conclusion. Talking about maturing, you know...

My point is that unless you're willing to put your money where your mouth is, nobody will care what you say. Europe these days seems to be full of self-righteous cowards. They talk big about popular issues like Guantanamo Bay and Israel, but aren't actually willing to do anything about it. Face it, your politicians know that this rhetoric helps in elections. That's all it is, just a big cynical ploy. Real action from Europe is quite rare.

And i stand to my point: The ones to decide how many jews were allowed to migrate to palestine should have been the palestinsians (just like everywhere else), and no one else.

Who let the Palestinians in?

Let´s have the US open it´s mexican border, have all the mexicans come in. Have them claim their own state and in the following decades settle the whole pacific area. Imagine Gaza was L.A., Kansas the west-banks. The mexicans sure have historic ties there, right ? So then they need some other (third) country draft some document saying that they may do this. Chavez would, i guess. So check on that one, too. Now they need some russian oil-tycoons to buy a lot of american property there. Check three. The US would have to cede the whole west, and Mexico would have the right to deport all the yankees to the east. Or would it ? Well, one thing is for sure: The eurpeans would be to pansy to do anything about it.

Mexicans come to the US because the US is awesome. They're not coming here to take over. Mexicans are civilized, rational people who only want what's best for their children. If the Gaza strip were full of Mexicans and not Arabs, there wouldn't be any war, because they'd all be busy working instead of beating their wives and shooting rockets at kindergartens.

None of the history matters. What matters is that over the past few years, thousands of rockets and mortar shells have been fired by Palestinians, against the civilian population of Israel. Israel has an obligation to defend its people from this threat. Proportionality has nothing to do with it. If you try to blow up your neighbor's house with rockets, the police won't hold back in stopping you. Why should Israel hold back in stopping Hamas?

In the end, Arabs are the problem. As long as they hate Jews more than they love their children, this war will not end. The only proven way to stop people from hating Jews is to kick the ever-loving **** out of them.

[Felch]

Could you expand on this part a bit. This is something that I havent' heard before and would love to know more about it so when everyone is throwing around the "STOLEN" term I can keep things in perspective.

When Palestine was governed by the Turks and British, Zionists bought the land that they settled on. I'm not certain on details of the real estate deals, but the rights of the Palestinians certainly weren't being trampled.

[onodera]

When Palestine was governed by the Turks and British, Zionists bought the land that they settled on. I'm not certain on details of the real estate deals, but the rights of the Palestinians certainly weren't being trampled.

Farfour the Palestinian cousin of Mickey Mouse had all the details of these real estate deals, and we all know what happened to him.

[Nikolai]

Approximately 400.000 Palestinians had fled their homes by spring 1948, ie before the proclamation of Israel, and as a result of the intercommunal war.

Quick summary of
(Cleveland, William L. "A history of the modern Middle East" 3rd edition: 2004)
the curriculum my uni uses on the subject.

[testoerdin]

Farfour the Palestinian cousin of Mickey Mouse had all the details of these real estate deals, and we all know what happened to him.

Farfour was killed by evil Jews and with his dying words urged Palestinian children to continue fighting and killing Jews.