Another Round Begins in The Middle East

[Jon Miller]

Waffles, Chocolate, and Beer?

JM

[Darius871]

Waffles, Chocolate, and Beer?

German, Native American, and German.

[TCO]

Saras: Cool detail on the Liths. We like you. You're new Europe. Although I did an excercise in the 90s with some of your troops and the "no bathing" thing is true. And I'm not even being a toilet sensitive American.

[TCO]

I just read Israel has been preparing the ongoing raid for about 1,5 years. They have a scale model of Gaza in one of their bases. In a way, Israeli units know every street and target they are supposed to clear. Let's see how the ground offensive pans out then; I readily believe they've pulled off the stunt with the Gaza replica.

Sounds like sensible war planning. But you are stuck in little brother land and don't understand about war planning. That's why we had to protect your little German speed bump of a country all through the Cold War. I think we should stir up some Flemish-Walloon civil war. You're really just French and Dutch anyhow. Need a partition or to have Austria ruling you.

AND DAMN GRAMPHOS, QUOTE REPLY HAS A WAY SCREWED UP MARGIN ON THE LEFT SIDE THAT MAKES ME SCROLL EVEN THOUGH THE WINDOW IS TINY.

[TCO]

Life must be really easy if everything is black or white; good or evil. Congrats!

Must be easy to be some little latte-zipping EMO kid full of sophomoric feeling like you're better than the thugs. But when some redneck is ready to fvck you up the ass, then you'll want non-PC Burt Reynolds to kill them by shooting arrows into them.

[TCO]

Your astounding ignorance gives other rightwingers a bad name

It's funny as ****. And it's interesting.

[SlowwHand]

"...latte-zipping EMO kid..."

[TCO]

But nobody will have them. Lebanon and Jordan have already been destabilized due to the millions of Palestinian refugees. It's like saying to the Flemish in Belgium we need to be deported to the Netherlands so the Walloons can peacefully live here.

We speak Dutch too, but we're nowhere near the same as the Dutch, and neither we nor the others would want it, let alone the immense economic, social and political problems that would accompany such a deportation.

You guys have lost touch with reality

Partition works. You have a strange country anyhow. The strife is getting hot in the sports world:

http://triplefull.blogspot.com/2008/12/nine-gymnasts-go-on-strike-in-belgium.html#comments

[GePap]

As I recall:
1948 War -- Arabs are the aggressors.

Wrong. In early April the UN voted on the partition plan, which the Zionist accepted and the Arabs rejected. For the next month there was some internal fighting between Palestinians, who were disorganized, and Zionist forces, which were well organized. It is durting this time that most palestinians living in those lands that were to become Israel. Then in May Israel declared independence without declaring borders, meaning that they were not accepting the borders of the partition plan. It is at this point that neighboring Arab states sent in their forces, though for the most part these forces did not venture beyond those lands that had been assigned as Arab in the partition plan. of course, accoridng to the plan Jerusalem was to be a free city, but neither side cared.

~56 Suez Crisis - Egyptians grab the Suez Canal; Brits, French and Israelis counter attack.

The Suez Canal was in Egypt. What Nasser did was nationalize it. France and Britain then colluded with Israel to invade Egypt. This is why for example the US demanded that the UK, France, and Israel stop their action.

Six-day War -- Israelis launch a pre-emptive war, when Egypt, Syria and Jordan vow to destroy Israel.

This is probably the most complex of all. The general gist is that bad intellegence on all sides led the Egyptians to take several highly provocartive actions, and then the Israelis undertook a pre-emptive attack.

Yon Kippur War -- Arab sneak attack.

Correct, but then of course, they were attacking into their own occupied territory.

[Naked Gents Rut]

Then in May Israel declared independence without declaring borders, meaning that they were not accepting the borders of the partition plan. It is at this point that neighboring Arab states sent in their forces, though for the most part these forces did not venture beyond those lands that had been assigned as Arab in the partition plan.

Wholly inaccurate. Try reading a history book. The Arabs committed to an invasion at the end of the British Mandate weeks before the Israelis declared statehood and only the Jordanians were generally content to remain within the areas given to the Arabs under the UN partition plan.

of course, accoridng to the plan Jerusalem was to be a free city, but neither side cared.

If the Jews didn't care, then why did they fail to move into the Old City and East Jerusalem once they had secured their hold on West Jerusalem? They had five days to do so unopposed by any Arab army before the Jordanians arrived.

[TCO]

Wrong. In early April the UN voted on the partition plan...of course, accoridng to the plan Jerusalem was to be a free city, but neither side cared.

Just goes to show you how ****ed up the UN is. You emo kids should stop idollizing it and acting like we should ask for permission from it. It's a bunch of process without content. We should evict it from NYC.

[GePap]

[q]Then in May Israel declared


Wholly inaccurate. Try reading a history book. The Arabs committed to an invasion at the end of the British Mandate months before the Israelis declared statehood and only the Jordanians were generally content to remain within the areas given to the Arabs under the UN partition plan.

The British mandate ended May 15, 1948. Israel declared independence May 14, 1948. The partition plan was voted on in 1947, and the fighting in Palestine I mentioned in which large portions of the Palestinian population were made refugess happened prior to the end of the mandate and Israel's declaration of independence, as I stated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War

Seems I have remembered the history books better than you ever did.

Also, you need to work on your reading comprehension. I said that the Arab armies mainly did not move beyond those lands that had been assigned to the supposed Palestinian state. That is not the same as stating that when the war ended over a year latter, that those forces held the same ground, ad they most clearly didn't.

If the Jews didn't care, then why did they fail to move into the Old City and East Jerusalem once they had secured their hold on West Jerusalem? They had five days to do so unopposed by any Arab army before the Jordanians arrived.

Probably because those were (and are) Palestinian neighborhoods, and thus they could not be "secured" as easily as the western part.

[Naked Gents Rut]

Seems I have remembered the history books better than you ever did.

Nothing you said there contradicts what I said, namely that the Arab states committed to an invasion of Palestine (at the ending of the British Mandate) before the State of Israel was founded. The Arabs had hinted at direct intervention for months before May 1948 and officially committed to an invasion on the 30th of April, two weeks before the State of Israel was declared.

Also, you need to work on your reading comprehension. I said that the Arab armies mainly did not move beyond those lands that had been assigned to the supposed Palestinian state.

This is patently false. The Syrians entered Palestine through Jewish lands and the Egyptians sent one of their two columns directly through the Jewish Negev.

Probably because those were (and are) Palestinian neighborhoods, and thus they could not be "secured" as easily as the western part.

Considering they had just secured several Palestinian neighborhoods in West Jerusalem (Sheikh Jarrah, Katamon, Bak'a, the German Colony, the Greek Colony) and one in East Jersualem (Abu Tor), your argument makes little sense. The real reason they didn't take over the Old City and East Jerusalem is that Ben-Gurion and others feared the international community's response to such an action.

[GePap]

Given that fighting was already going on in Palestine for months, that the Arabs decided that they would invade when the Mandate ended isn't either much of a surprise, nor a sign that they were the "aggressors."

And yes, you are correct that Egyptian and Syrian forces went into areas designated as Jewish by the partition. Not going to argue that.

Considering they had just secured several Palestinian neighborhoods in West Jerusalem (Sheikh Jarrah, Katamon, Bak'a, the German Colony, the Greek Colony) and one in East Jersualem (Abu Tor), your argument makes little sense. The real reason they didn't take over the Old City and East Jerusalem is that Ben-Gurion and others feared the international community's response to such an action.

Well, that doesn't contradict my statement that both sides disregarded the notion of Jerusalem being a free city.

[Naked Gents Rut]

Given that fighting was already going on in Palestine for months, that the Arabs decided that they would invade when the Mandate ended isn't either much of a surprise, nor a sign that they were the "aggressors."

Given that Palestinian Arab attacks on Jews in the days following the UN General Assembly's November 1947 decision to partition Palestine started the civil war phase of the 1948 War and that the invasion of the Arab powers in May 1948 started the interstate phase of the 1948 War, I don't see how you could label the Arabs as anything other than the "aggressors."

And yes, you are correct that Egyptian and Syrian forces went into areas designated as Jewish by the partition. Not going to argue that.

Yes. You were wrong.

Well, that doesn't contradict my statement that both sides disregarded the notion of Jerusalem being a free city.

The Jews didn't disregard it entirely. They secured West Jerusalem in order to protect the Jewish population there, but they didn't take the whole city even though they had the opportunity.