Another Round Begins in The Middle East

[Imran Siddiqui]

Well until Hamas gets their hands on a nuclear bomb (which probably isn't all that far off) and then you may wonder why the government didn't take more diplomatic action to prevent a nuclear blast from happening.

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by Guardian
You know, as an outsider with no strong ties to either side, it's hard for me to think of this as anything but a tragic outcome of plain stupidity on both sides.

On the Hamas side, it's been proven again and again and again and again and AGAIN that bombings, shootings and rocket launches do not end the occupation, but only bring more suffering to the people Hamas claim to be fighting for.

On the other hand, the IDF has already shown the whole wide world again and again and again and AGAIN that they are INCAPABLE of stopping the rocket launches or toppling the Hamas government by bombing, bulldozing and destroying infrastructure.

Yet at this time, what both parties are bringing to the table is more, more, more and MORE of the same.

Those who can not learn from history are condemned to repeat it - and it's a long way to the promised land for those who can only move in circles.

I've had the feeling for awhile now that Hamas has no interest in removing Israel from the map for the simple reason that as long as Israel exists they exist. The people who are in charge of Hamas have no meaningful future in a world where Palestinians are all happy and Jew free. As for Israel, they seem to desperately want stability and security but cannot see any result where they are not the dominate party. They can't completely destroy Hamas without completely displacing the Palestinians and that will never be allowed as Gepap mentioned. They also can't bring themselves to manage the leap of faith required to get true peace on an equal basis with the Palestinians. I can't blame them on that point to be honest. There is no Palestinian leader that I'm aware of that both has credibility with his people and willing to inspire faith in Israel. IMO if peace is to come it will have to be by way of another Arab leader. Someone who isn't seen as weak towards Israel but is seen in Israel as an honest peacemaker. Even that is a long shot. I hope I'm wrong. I hope a Palestinian leader steps up and not only deals with Israel in good faith but won't be seen as a lap dog either.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by GePap


So Hamas is at "fault" that Israel decided to carry out this type of strike?

Yes, this is what is usually called "casus beli".

Have the guts to take responsibility for your actions.

Are you really an idiot?

I also find it hillarious that a people who honor religious fundamentalists who by their actions brough nothing but pain and misery for their own people act so outraged when their enemies act just like that.

Barking at the wrong tree.

You're welcome to prove I honor religious fundamentalists of any sort. Aren't you tired of inventing stuff?

[Chemical Ollie]

I predict a shoe thrower intifada

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by GePap
Translation:

I don't know what I am talking about, but since it offends my sensibilities to think this is possible, I will deny it.

okay, message recieved.

translation: Siro has read a refute of this in the paper and can (with some effort) access the actual data, while you Gepap is jerking off to "socialist weekly review"'s anonymous Hamas source.

[Sirotnikov]

On the other hand, the IDF has already shown the whole wide world again and again and again and AGAIN that they are INCAPABLE of stopping the rocket launches or toppling the Hamas government by bombing, bulldozing and destroying infrastructure.

Not incapable. Unwilling.

Israel has not been willing to invest the effort needed to topple Hamas or stop the rocket launches.

Everyone knows that such a mission involves reconquest of the Gaza strip, and a slow grinding city combat operation.

Israel has not been willing to do this, which is exactly why, it has instead opted for exchanges of attacks.

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

Not incapable. Unwilling.

Israel has not been willing to invest the effort needed to topple Hamas or stop the rocket launches.

Everyone knows that such a mission involves reconquest of the Gaza strip, and a slow grinding city combat operation.

Israel has not been willing to do this, which is exactly why, it has instead opted for exchanges of attacks.

What exactly would Israel do with Gaza if there was a full scale invasion? Is Israel going to run Hamas out only to have them replaced by someone else? Is Israel going to run the administration of Gaza again?

Hamas knew what it was doing. Peace means death to Hamas and they knew that what they were doing would bring down the wrath of the IDF eventually. I don't see any win for anyone besides Hamas. I say all that believing Israel acted the only real way it could. Any other government would be compelled to do something in the face of attacks.

[Unimatrix11]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Well until Hamas gets their hands on a nuclear bomb (which probably isn't all that far off) and then you may wonder why the government didn't take more diplomatic action to prevent a nuclear blast from happening.

...what i´m saying - basically.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
Not incapable. Unwilling.

Israel has not been willing to invest the effort needed to topple Hamas or stop the rocket launches.

Everyone knows that such a mission involves reconquest of the Gaza strip, and a slow grinding city combat operation.

Israel has not been willing to do this, which is exactly why, it has instead opted for exchanges of attacks.

You mean like.... Lebanon?

[Naked Gents Rut]

Transfer is the only solution. Just do it.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


You mean like.... Lebanon?

Lebanon was also a case of unwillingness.

The cabinet and army top brass did all they could to try and win the war by airforce alone.

Of course that is incredibly dumb, and impossible. So while we hurt Hezbullah, we haven't crushed them because almost no land forces were used, and you can't actually wage a war without maneuvering forces and controlling land with boots on ground.

War is more than target destruction by firepower.

Infact, the army's original plans were thrown in the trash by the former pilot chief of staff, who directed confused small scale raids against strategically unimportant areas on the border.

There was tons more wrong with that war, but no doubt, had we used the ground forces and invaded, most of Hezbullah's army would have dissolved. Hezbullah sustained a huge shock in the last 48 hours when we finally made a ground move.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I'm talking about the decades long occupation, not the mini-war.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Sprayber
What exactly would Israel do with Gaza if there was a full scale invasion? Is Israel going to run Hamas out only to have them replaced by someone else? Is Israel going to run the administration of Gaza again?

These are exactly the kind of questions that stop us from truly destroying Hamas.

There'd be a vacuum, and that is possibly much worse.

But the argument stays - Israel has not really acted to topple Hamas. That is one of the reasons.

Hamas knew what it was doing. Peace means death to Hamas and they knew that what they were doing would bring down the wrath of the IDF eventually. I don't see any win for anyone besides Hamas. I say all that believing Israel acted the only real way it could. Any other government would be compelled to do something in the face of attacks.

Well observers say that Hamas did not want a fullscale conflict.

Their goals possibly included
1) attempt to violently re-negociate better terms of a second truce
2) let out steam for inside activists
3) appear brave and mighty, in face of (what they thought would be) meek Israeli response.
4) take off the mind of the populace of the lack of progress on issues such as prisoners, welfare etc.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
I'm talking about the decades long occupation, not the mini-war.

The mini war was perhaps the most successful blitz against terrorist guerilla forces in history.

Trouble is, we lost a key ally that was murdered, inner lebanese politics made a stain on Israel (sabra and shatilla) and most importantly - we went form an offensive position to a defensive war against guerilla, which is suicide.

Problem is we couldn't totally leave the area to Syria, whose presence btw, as far as I understand was jammed down Israel's throat in the late 70s by the US administration.

[Imran Siddiqui]

And what about the occupation, again?