Feast of the Immaculate Conception

[Ben Kenobi]

Wouldn't the fact that she had children make her a sinner?

No, why would it?

Not to mention that she mentions her "Savior", something she wouldn't need if she never committed a sin.

As I said earlier, it is only because Christ chose her that she is sinless. Therefore, even though she has not sinned, Christ is still her saviour.

[Ben Kenobi]

Yes, doesn't she give birth to Jesus' siblings?

Does Jesus in fact have brothers?

[Felch]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Yes, doesn't she give birth to Jesus' siblings? Were they all ICed as well? If not, she did the nasty with Joseph! WooOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooo!

Jesus Christ was an only child.

You'd think some people had never heard of Modest Mouse.

[Verto]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


No, why would it?

It seems to fit with the ass-backwards thinking of the RCC and Christianity in general.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Felch


Jesus Christ was an only child.

You'd think some people had never heard of Modest Mouse.

So who was James, brother of Jesus?

[Blaupanzer]

Originally posted by Elok
I believe that's what Boris is getting at: If Jesus needs an immaculate uterus to be clean himself, then why doesn't Mary need one too? And wouldn't Anna (Mary's mother, at least in the Orthodox tradition) need an immaculate mother too? And so on, and so on...

Actually, in poking fun, Elok hits the target. Only one clean womb is required. Per doctrine, God always was, always will be, and is far beyond mortal concepts such as sin. So Jesus is not born in the traditional sense nor conceived using the traditional method. For him to get a proper ride while going thru the stages of development necessary to manifest himself as human, he needed an immaculate womb. He is without sin by definition. The judge has no criminal past, no temptation (except when made flesh), and none that can judge him.

[Boris Godunov]

Mark 6:3

"Is he not the carpenter, the son of Mary, and the brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?"

I suppose we're in for another round of "the word the Bible uses doesn't really mean that, in this one instance."

[Japher]

Wiki tells me Mary's parents had sex to conceive her and that her IC occured then, and that it wasn't a virgin birth like Jesus... this is where I was getting confussed, I thought Mary's birth was also a virgin birth, but it appears that is not the case. Thus, it just seems like a "I called it" after the fact to make her seem like a diety or give her more worth than the Bible did. I have no idea why, but I could hypothesis on this.

[Elok]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
So who was James, brother of Jesus?

There are actually decent arguments against that: the word interpreted "brother" there can also mean "cousin" or some such, and if James were Jesus's brother He wouldn't have said "Behold your mother" to John at the cross. Mary would still have James to take care of her if he was in fact her son.

[Verto]

I personally don't understand why Christians construct such complicated beliefs, since the only way to reach their conclusions is through some mumbo jumbo reasoning (even for religion). At least progress to an Emersonian perspective, instead of acting as if you can make sense of the inconsistencies and nonsense of the Bible.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Elok
There are actually decent arguments against that: the word interpreted "brother" there can also mean "cousin" or some such, and if James were Jesus's brother He wouldn't have said "Behold your mother" to John at the cross. Mary would still have James to take care of her if he was in fact her son.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-siblings.html

Answer: Jesus’ brothers are mentioned in several Bible verses. Matthew 12:46, Luke 8:19, and Mark 3:31 say that Jesus’ mother and brothers came to see Him. The Bible tells us that Jesus had four brothers: James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas (Matthew 13:55). The Bible also tells us that Jesus had sisters, but they are not named or numbered (Matthew 13:56). In John 7:1-10, His brothers go on to the festival while Jesus stays behind. In Acts 1:14, His brothers and mother are described as praying with the disciples. Later, in Galatians 1:19, it mentions that James was Jesus’ brother. The most natural conclusion of these passages is to interpret that Jesus had actual blood siblings.

Some Roman Catholics claim that these “brothers” were actually Jesus’ cousins. However, in each instance, the specific Greek word for “brother” is used. While the word can refer to other relatives, its normal and literal meaning is a physical brother. There was a Greek word for cousin, and it was not used. Further, if they were Jesus’ cousins, why would they so often be described as being with Mary, Jesus’ mother? There is nothing in the context of His mother and brothers coming to see Him that even hints that they were anyone other than His literal, blood-related half-brothers.

A second Roman Catholic argument is that Jesus’ brothers and sisters were the children of Joseph from a previous marriage, before he married Mary. An entire theory of Joseph's being significantly older than Mary, having been previously married, having multiple children, and then being widowed before marrying Mary is invented. The problem with this is that the Bible does not even hint that Joseph was married or had children before he married Mary. If Joseph had at least six children before he married Mary, why are they not mentioned in Joseph and Mary’s trip to Bethlehem (Luke 2:4-7) or their trip to Egypt (Matthew 2:13-15) or their trip back to Nazareth (Matthew 2:20-23)?

There is no Biblical reason to believe that these siblings are anything other than the actual children of Joseph and Mary. Those who oppose the idea that Jesus had half-brothers and half-sisters do so, not from a reading of Scripture, but from a preconceived concept of the perpetual virginity of Mary, which is itself clearly unbiblical: "But he (Joseph) had no union with her (Mary) UNTIL she gave birth to a son. And he gave Him the name Jesus" (Matthew 1:25). Jesus had half-siblings, half-brothers and half-sisters, who were the children of Joseph and Mary. That is the clear and unambiguous teaching of God’s Word.

Plus, isn't there a passage that refers to Jesus as her "first-born son," implying there were later ones?

[Japher]

Apparently after Jesus was born she was free to sow her oats... so to speak

[Elok]

Personally, I don't really care if Jesus was an only child or just first of many. I'm just repeating the standard church spiel FYI.

[Jon Miller]

This Mary business is actually what bothers me the most about Catholics, more then the Pope.

JM

[Japher]

The whole sainthood idolizing bugs me.