Feast of the Immaculate Conception

[Ben Kenobi]

The whole sainthood idolizing bugs me.

Why does it bother you? Moses is a saint, there are many saints that are there in heaven.

Saints aren't God. They are just people in heaven.

[Ben Kenobi]

I guess those who are doctrinally pure see it as a "necessary evil" to produce babies.

Are you confusing us with Platonists? There is nothing wrong with the body. Heck, we are even getting bodies in heaven, if we thought the body was evil, why would we get bodies?

But most Catholics are just fine with sex

I don't see where you have gotten it that Catholics thought sex was evil. Catholics are well known to have bigger families anyways.

[Ben Kenobi]

Well, the justification I've heard is that "it's hard to imagine someone choosing to return to normal human relations after an event as life-altering as giving birth to one's creator," something like that.

It's just a historical fact. There's no reason for it, it's the same as saying there is theological significance behind the fact that Christ was trained as a carpenter.

[Imran Siddiqui]

it's the same as saying there is theological significance behind the fact that Christ was trained as a carpenter.

There isn't?!!

[Ben Kenobi]

Even so, you have the fact that sex/reproduction itself didn't exist except as a direct consequence of the Fall.

Where did you hear this Boris? Genesis explicitly says that women were created for men because it was not good for men to be alone.

The two curses placed on man was that childbirth would be PAINFUL. This means that childbirth would have been pain free before the fall, which also states that sex and the rest were present in the garden.

Sex would be better, not worse.

Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [b] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

This is all prior to the fall, Genesis 1:28. Sex and reproduction were present prior to the fall.

That strongly implies that the act is part of God's punishment for eating the Forbidden Fruit.

No, quite the contrary. God blessed man by giving him the earth to fill and subdue. God cursed man by making childbirth painful.

And then there's the church's adamant condemnation of any and all forms of contraception, which imply that if you're not having sex for it's "necessary evil" component (conceiving children), then it's wrong.

Yes, it's the world that hates sex, not the Catholic church.

All the Catholic church is saying is that sex with a rubber is less satisfying then sex without. I really don't see why people find this a HARD teaching. Get married have sex with the wife and nobody else. That one I can see. Contraception? What's the point of it?

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
I'm not Catholic. All I know is that she conceived immaculately. I didn't know anyone thought in ran in the family.

She conceived VIRGINALLY.

Not the same thing.

[Boris Godunov]

I concede the sex pre-Eden issue...that was a mistaken impression. I'm not sure how a woman was supposed to push a baby out of her vagina without pain, however. But making childbirth painful hardly seems a curse on "man," now does it? The women are the ones who get the brunt of that particular curse.

All the Catholic church is saying is that sex with a rubber is less satisfying then sex without. I really don't see why people find this a HARD teaching. Get married have sex with the wife and nobody else. That one I can see. Contraception? What's the point of it?

The Catholic Church is telling married couples that they can't use condoms because it means their sex would be less pleasurable?? Are you joking?

The point of contraception for a married couple is obvious: they don't want to have so many kids that it bankrupts them, or ends up killing the mother. The Catholic Church forbids any type of contraception whatsoever, even for a married couple. Given that prohibition, the logical conclusion is that the Catholic Church views intercourse for recreational purposes negatively.

But the necessity of Mary remaining a Virgin after the birth of Jesus is still unanswered. If having sex within marriage is A-OK, then why does it even matter to Catholics if Mary had kids with Joseph after Jesus was born? She was his wife, after all, not God's.

[KrazyHorse]

he Catholic Church forbids any type of contraception whatsoever, even for a married couple

The rhythm method (even in conjunction with temperature or vaginal viscosity measurements to improve ovulation estimation) is accepted by the Church. To quote a great Baltimorean wag: "It is now quite lawful for a Catholic woman to avoid pregnancy by a resort to mathematics, though she is still forbidden to resort to physics or chemistry."

[KrazyHorse]

Given that prohibition, the logical conclusion is that the Catholic Church views intercourse for recreational purposes negatively.

No. The Catholic Church teaches that sex has 3 purposes: recreation, marital bonding and procreation. It is the interference with any of these 3 that they object to.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
This is one case where it's helpful to rely on tradition, not scripture.

The tradition has been that Christ had cousins, but not a brother or a sister in the way we usually use the term. Added to this is the fact that 'brother and sister' are used for followers of Christ in other contexts.

"It's always been that way" is hardly a compelling argument.

If James was not the brother of Jesus of Nazareth, can we therefore dismiss the passage in Josephus as referring to the same Jesus? While I am highly doubtful that the Bible would use the word for "brother" and really mean cousin, I would be certain that Josephus would not use it such.

There are many teachings which are not explicitly found in scripture, including the trinity.

True, but that would suggest that those teachings are of dubious merit (if one accepts scripture as being God's revelation and all that jazz).

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse

he Catholic Church forbids any type of contraception whatsoever, even for a married couple

The rhythm method (even in conjunction with temperature or vaginal viscosity measurements to improve ovulation estimation) is accepted by the Church. To quote a great Baltimorean wag: "It is now quite lawful for a Catholic woman to avoid pregnancy by a resort to mathematics, though she is still forbidden to resort to physics or chemistry."

The rhythm method isn't contraception, as it's not actually blocking conception. And it's effectiveness is dubious.

[KrazyHorse]

Yet even most Protestant groups accept trinitarianism.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


The rhythm method isn't contraception, as it's not actually blocking conception. And it's effectiveness is dubious.

It is so contraception. By definition, contraception is a method of avoiding conception while still having sexual intercourse. And when combined with body temperature or vaginal viscosity measurements it is quite effective (not as effective as more direct methods, but still quite effective).

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse

Given that prohibition, the logical conclusion is that the Catholic Church views intercourse for recreational purposes negatively.

No. The Catholic Church teaches that sex has 3 purposes: recreation, marital bonding and procreation. It is the interference with any of these 3 that they object to.

Oh, I know what they say. But it's the message of insisting on the perpetual virginity of Mary in order for her to maintain her holy sinless veneer that's the issue. That says to me that, in spite of claims to the contrary, there is a deep-seated hatred of sex in the doctrine.

We mere mortals aren't meant to live up to that standard (that's why we need a savior), so it's OK for us. But not for Mary-- she's too good to ever have wicked sex, even with her husband.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Yet even most Protestant groups accept trinitarianism.

Yes, I didn't mean it as a Catholic-only observation.