Feast of the Immaculate Conception

[Ben Kenobi]

If it all takes to make one without sin is that they be immaculately conceived, why would Mary have to have been immaculately conceived as well to make Jesus without sin?

Because she bore Christ. Remember Christ's incarnation gives him a full human nature.

Or is the idea that Mary wasn't born of a woman at all, but rather just poofed into existence? What does "preserved from her birth" mean?

Christ has always existed. So prior to his incarnation, he selected Mary as his mother. This we know. 'Preserved from her birth', means precisely what it does, when Christ selected Mary as his mother, he preserved her from sin.

And if that is the case, the Bible states that Jesus is the descendant of David, how could that be if he had no father and his mother was poofed into being?

Precisely why he chose Mary as a descendent of David, in fulfillment of the prophecies.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Elok
A. The Catholic notion of Original Sin, under which IIUC we inherit not only Adam's predilections but his guilt.

Right, I get that. But if being born immaculately was enough for Mary to be sinless, why not Jesus? Why did he have to be born of someone who was also ICed? Seems like an unneccessary step.

[Japher]

Seems like one contrived by the Catholic church.

[Ben Kenobi]

B. The Catholic urge to make all theology as cut-and-dried as the multiplication table.

Take up your beef with Aquinas then.

If Mary wasn't immaculately conceived, then I would love to hear how she can be sinless.

[Boris Godunov]

Why does she have to be sinless?

[Japher]

If Mary wasn't immaculately conceived, then I would love to hear how she can be sinless.

I don't see why her conception is her sin.

[Ben Kenobi]

Right, I get that. But if being born immaculately was enough for Mary to be sinless, why not Jesus? Why did he have to be born of someone who was also ICed? Seems like an unneccessary step.

You have to be immaculately conceived to be sinless. If Mary is in fact sinless, then she was immaculately conceived.

We know that Christ preserved Mary from the stain of sin, therefore it follows from this that she was immaculately conceived.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Japher


I don't see why her conception is her sin.

Sex is evil to Catholics, silly.

[Japher]

It's not like she had sex in order to be born.

[Elok]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down

I believe that's what Boris is getting at: If Jesus needs an immaculate uterus to be clean himself, then why doesn't Mary need one too? And wouldn't Anna (Mary's mother, at least in the Orthodox tradition) need an immaculate mother too? And so on, and so on...

[Ben Kenobi]

Why does she have to be sinless?

Christ inherits his human nature from her. If she were not sinless, then Christ would inherit a sinful human nature, which is not the case. Christ inherited a sinless human nature from her, which is why she is sinless.

The only way to be sinless is to be immaculately conceived.

It all fits together.

As for the tradition, it's been the tradition of the Church from it's earliest times.

Origen calls her worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, most complete sanctity, perfect justice, neither deceived by the persuasion of the serpent, nor infected with his poisonous breathings ("Hom. i in diversa");

Ambrose says she is incorrupt, a virgin immune through grace from every stain of sin ("Sermo xxii in Ps. cxviii);

The Syrian Fathers never tire of extolling the sinlessness of Mary. St. Ephraem considers no terms of eulogy too high to describe the excellence of Mary's grace and sanctity: "Most holy Lady, Mother of God, alone most pure in soul and body, alone exceeding all perfection of purity ...., alone made in thy entirety the home of all the graces of the Most Holy Spirit, and hence exceeding beyond all compare even the angelic virtues in purity and sanctity of soul and body . . . . my Lady most holy, all-pure, all-immaculate, all-stainless, all-undefiled, all-incorrupt, all-inviolate spotless robe of Him Who clothes Himself with light as with a garment . . . flower unfading, purple woven by God, alone most immaculate" ("Precationes ad Deiparam" in Opp. Graec. Lat., III, 524-37).

[Verto]

Wouldn't the fact that she had children make her a sinner? Not to mention that she mentions her "Savior", something she wouldn't need if she never committed a sin.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Elok

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down

I believe that's what Boris is getting at: If Jesus needs an immaculate uterus to be clean himself, then why doesn't Mary need one too? And wouldn't Anna (Mary's mother, at least in the Orthodox tradition) need an immaculate mother too? And so on, and so on...

Exactly. If being born in a uterus of a woman who was not sinless isn't enough, it has to be IC all the way back.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Verto
Wouldn't the fact that she had children make her a sinner? Not to mention that she mentions her "Savior", something she wouldn't need if she never committed a sin.

Yes, doesn't she give birth to Jesus' siblings? Were they all ICed as well? If not, she did the nasty with Joseph! WooOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooo!

[Ben Kenobi]

I believe that's what Boris is getting at: If Jesus needs an immaculate uterus to be clean himself, then why doesn't Mary need one too?

Christ doesn't need an immaculate human uterus to be clean himself.

He has a divine nature.

He needs to be born of a woman in order to have a human nature. This is where the problem arises. He cannot give himself a human nature without being born of a woman. The issue here isn't over his Virgin birth, but over the understanding of his incarnation.

The chain has to be broken somewhere. We know that Christ explicitly chose Mary to be his mother, and kept her free from sin. Thus, Christ broke the chain here, and not earlier.