Marriage, Gays, and Atheists

[Ben Kenobi]

He IS my husband He is NOT my wife. And I DID answer your question.

You called him your wife, now he's your husband.

I asked, what makes him your wife INSTEAD of your husband, or vice versa, your husband INSTEAD of your wife.

You evaded that question quite skillfully. I'd like you to answer that.

No, I've always been gay. It just took time and wisdom to admit it.

So when can we expect this gay phase to end?

First of all, cite it.

Why? It won't change your mind over anyone else's.

3, people like yourself and Ted Haggard try to convince themselves they are straight and marry a woman because they "want kids and a wife". Then they realize how genuinely miserable it makes them and at some point, they become who they truly are and not what bigots like you want them to be.

I think it's because they have a midlife crisis and want to try seeing what being gay is like.

Best of all, you have no way of proving your statement is more correct then mine. People can and do change Asher. Sexual orientation is in no way fixed.

There's a significant portion of the gay community who view bisexuals as in a transition phase. The usual response is something like " , yeah, I was bi once too".

I think there genuinely can be and are bi people, personally, as I'm a believer in the Kinsey spectrum.

Kinsey BTW rejects the concept of 'fixed' over 'fluid' orientation, so you might want to read up on him more.

It's called a sex change, not a gender change.

So gender is just all in your head?

Call me her and she today then please Asher.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
How so? I cited them, and unlike everyone else here, I'm the only one who actually bothers. As usual citations do nothing to actually change what people think so why should I bother?

Ming, seriously--I've seen other boards institute bannings when posters blatantly lie, and I think this a good moment to start. BK is simply lying through his teeth, and he knows it. He knows what he cited didn't say what he claims it does, and he's also lying about being the "only one who actually bothers," since I provided a link to more statistical evidence than he did.

Dishonesty of this magnitude should have consequences.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

So when can we expect this gay phase to end?

Never, dip****, because the sexual orientation that you have is the same sexual orientation that stays with you for LIFE. It might help to read my post about the social and pyschological dynamics of being in closet versus being out.

Among other things people have pointed out that you've lied about, is that you also lie about never insulting people here in this thread.

Your insulting is different from the usual type of insulting. You insult others in this thread by deliberately distorting the point of other people's arguments. You also insult us by using deplorable, demeaning analogies that show utter disrespect for gays and lesbians.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
You called him your wife, now he's your husband.

I DID NOT. I even clarified EXPLICITLY what I said, and you ignored it saying I wasn't answering the question!

I asked, what makes him your wife INSTEAD of your husband, or vice versa, your husband INSTEAD of your wife.

You evaded that question quite skillfully. I'd like you to answer that.

IT IS AN INVALID QUESTION. I never said he was my wife. I don't consider him my wife or my husband, he's my partner/SO right now. He WILL be my husband when we marry.

So when can we expect this gay phase to end?

It's never been a phase. I have always been gay. I tried to identify as straight, then bi to convince myself that I was straight, and then bi. It didn't work, because I was gay.

I think it's because they have a midlife crisis and want to try seeing what being gay is like.

Again, just because it's something possible for you doesn't mean it is for others. In almost all these cases, it was gay men trying to live a heteronormative life as per society's demands and their upbringing. At a certain point they can't take it anymore.

Best of all, you have no way of proving your statement is more correct then mine. People can and do change Asher. Sexual orientation is in no way fixed.

Just because you are bisexual and can change who you **** on a whim doesn't mean everyone else is the same.

Kinsey BTW rejects the concept of 'fixed' over 'fluid' orientation, so you might want to read up on him more.

You're confusing the concept of "fluid" with the concept of a sexuality spectrum of no fixed "straight vs gay", but people inbetween.

[Ben Kenobi]

We aren't talking dogs... we are talking a couple.

Are you saying I don't really LOVE my dog?

Sure it matters to me... I'm straight. If I was gay, I would feel differently.

So you tell your wife you are happy to be married to such a beautiful person as her?

Who am I to tell somebody who they can or can not spend their life with. People have the RIGHT to choose their own partners.

And they are unable to do that right now? There are no laws that bar them from living with whomever they choose to live for as long as they like.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA Yes, real evidence, unlike your studies that don't even back up your claims. See the link from my earlier post just a few ago. Read that and try to tell me that state care is better for the child.

Ok thank you.

You have NOT SHOWN ANY research that indicates a gay couple is worse than a straight couple. I have shown evidence that State Care is cruel and terrible.
And not just single piece of research... read the link I provided. It's absolutely scarey what happens to kids in state care. You can not advocate leaving children in the system.

So we should give them to whomever wants to adopt? Why screen at all?

And the agency should give children to ANY loving couple just to get them out of the cruel system.

Why a couple? Wouldn't an individual do the same thing?

No... the welfare of the children is relevent. And a gay couple can be as loving as a straight couple.

Then provide some evidence of this statement.

People should be judged on their ability to provide a loving and stable home... NOT their sexual preference.

I've already proved this is not the case. Asher admitted that gay couples are less stable.

HUH... I never said anything about shutting down adoption agencies... not relevent.

It is relevant. Adoption agencies have been shut down for refusing to allow gay adoptions. If this is all about the welfare of the child, then how does it benefit to shut down private adoption agencies?

I think it's very clear, you don't care at all about the welfare of the child, since you are willing to give the children to ANYONE who says that they love children and want to have them. You've said that children should be screening them, you want to do absolutely anything to get them out of the system.

The solution isn't to just do away with screening altogether, but instead to encourage more couples to adopt.

Remember... you screen ANY family. There is a chance for break up in any relationship. But what we do know is, the longer the kids stay under the care of the state, the more potential risk they are subjected to.

I agree, but that's not an excuse to place a child in a situation where the protections against abuse are not there. Again, do no harm is the first priority. The state isn't responsible for the fact that children are put into their care, that is life, the state is responsible for where the children are placed.

Getting them out of the system is the best way to protect them. And kids can get abused by hetero couples as well... And there is NO REAL RESEARCH that shows that gay adoptive parents abuse there children more than Straight adoptive parents.

There is plenty of evidence that they do break up sooner, and they suffer greater partner abuse. Boris, Asher et al, bring up the very good point that you've forgotten in all this kerfluffle. Do you sincerely believe that there is less abuse of men in gay relationships then in straight ones, when by their own admission I've shown that lesbian relationships show more abuse then straight ones?

Because I want to see Priests kept from children. Their rate of sexual abuse is higher than gay people.

Can't you accomplish that by taking your children to mass and still have them exposed to religion? You've not shown me why religion ought to be kept from children because of priest abuse, nor have you shown me why we should overlook teacher abuse, which is far more serious, since they have much more time with your children.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ming, seriously--I've seen other boards institute bannings when posters blatantly lie, and I think this a good moment to start.

Wow, the epitome of tolerance.

Calling for banning?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Wow, the epitome of tolerance.

Calling for banning?

It would definitely improve the quality of posting on this site...

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Wow, the epitome of tolerance.

Calling for banning?

Why should anyone tolerate your constant, unrepentant lying? That wouldn't be "tolerance," any more than a parent allowing their child to get away with lying would be "tolerance."

It's entirely reasonable for message boards to institute policies that prevent users from just making **** up without consequences. SDnet does this pretty well, I'd say. If someone says something untrue and is called on it, they are obligated to acknowledge and retract the false statements. If they don't, or worse keep persisting in restating them like you do, they get a ban for a few days. If it's persistent, they get perma-banned.

Of course, given how much you lie, we'd hit the perma-ban threshold pretty quick...

[Ben Kenobi]

I DID NOT. I even clarified EXPLICITLY what I said, and you ignored it saying I wasn't answering the question!

No, you didn't answer my question.

Why would you call him your husband instead of your wife? All you said is that he provided the same benefits to you as a wife, but that does nothing to answer my question as to why you would call him a husband over use of either term interchangeably.

IT IS AN INVALID QUESTION. I never said he was my wife. I don't consider him my wife or my husband, he's my partner/SO right now. He WILL be my husband when we marry.

Why a husband when you get married?

It's never been a phase. I have always been gay.

I heard that song and dance when you said you were bi. What's different now? Why is it so important to you to keep convincing yourself that you were always gay instead of acknowledging a change in your own orientation?

For someone who accused me of saying, 'being gay was never an option', you seem even more fixed.

Again, just because it's something possible for you doesn't mean it is for others. In almost all these cases, it was gay men trying to live a heteronormative life as per society's demands and their upbringing. At a certain point they can't take it anymore.

And you have no evidence to verify this Asher, that is what I am saying. You've constructed a whole house of cards to explain away this phenomenon, (rather common), of married people leaving their families when they are middle aged to take up a gay or lesbian lover.

The simplest, and most obvious explanation is that their own desires have changed over time.

Just because you are bisexual and can change who you **** on a whim doesn't mean everyone else is the same.

Where is the evidence that I can change on a whim? You keep saying I'm bi with no evidence whatsoever.

You're confusing the concept of "fluid" with the concept of a sexuality spectrum of no fixed "straight vs gay", but people inbetween.

Kinsey is very explicit in rejecting the notion that sexuality is a fixed concept, hence the term fluid, with fine gradations.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Are you saying I don't really LOVE my dog?

There's a difference between platonic love and romantic love.

There's a difference between love between two people and love between a pet and the pet's owner.


You're pathetic, BK.

[Ben Kenobi]

Never, dip****, because the sexual orientation that you have is the same sexual orientation that stays with you for LIFE.

Oh, really? Then why do many people change over time?

It might help to read my post about the social and pyschological dynamics of being in closet versus being out.

I did, it falls to Ockham's razor, which says that the simplest explanation is usually the most correct. The simplest explanation as to why people change is because their sexual orientation is fluid, and has changed.

Among other things people have pointed out that you've lied about, is that you also lie about never insulting people here in this thread.

Have I called you a dog that should be put down?

Your insulting is different from the usual type of insulting. You insult others in this thread by deliberately distorting the point of other people's arguments. You also insult us by using deplorable, demeaning analogies that show utter disrespect for gays and lesbians.

The cure for ignorance is education. I believe you even said so yourself.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
No, you didn't answer my question.

Why would you call him your husband instead of your wife?

Because husband is the generally accepted terminology for a male-gendered spouse. If you notice I refer to him as my "SO" on Apolyton, its you that keeps begging to choose "husband" or "wife".

I heard that song and dance when you said you were bi. What's different now? Why is it so important to you to keep convincing yourself that you were always gay instead of acknowledging a change in your own orientation?

My orientation never changed. I do not know why you do not comprehend it. A person's orientation does not always correspond to what they tell themselves and others. Ted Haggard was "straight" while he had sex with gay prostitutes, for instance.

I've tried explaining this to you many times, but I've come to accept that you are simply not bright enough to comprehend all of the complications involving societal norms, pressures, and homosexuality's role in it. This isn't an insult, it's genuine. You cannot comprehend it, so I'm no longer going to try to enlighten you.

Where is the evidence that I can change on a whim? You keep saying I'm bi with no evidence whatsoever.

You say people can change their orientation throughout their life. Anyone who can do this is bisexual.

[Ben Kenobi]

Why should anyone tolerate your constant, unrepentant lying?

Wow, 5 on 1 isn't enough a dogpile?

Why don't you recruit some more folks Boris?

That wouldn't be "tolerance," any more than a parent allowing their child to get away with lying would be "tolerance."

And you presume to be my parent and I your child?

It's entirely reasonable for message boards to institute policies that prevent users from just making **** up without consequences.

Do these people tend to quote evidence to back up their presuppositions?

I've already done, that plus I've read your quote and Ming's all the while trying to keep up with the 5 of you hammering away here.

And you still feel so threathened as to call for my banning?

That is the funniest thing I've heard all day!

SDnet does this pretty well, I'd say. If someone says something untrue and is called on it, they are obligated to acknowledge and retract the false statements.

Wow, thank goodness this isn't SDNet. I doubt any thread here would last long.

If they don't, or worse keep persisting in restating them like you do, they get a ban for a few days. If it's persistent, they get perma-banned.

I've followed the law of Poly to the letter. Attack the argument not the poster. I'm perfectly willing to debate these issues using reason and logic, regardless of how many times you flame me.

Of course, given how much you lie, we'd hit the perma-ban threshold pretty quick...

Thank goodness you don't have the ban hammer.

[Ben Kenobi]

Because husband is the generally accepted terminology for a male-gendered spouse.

Now why didn't you say this 5 posts ago? That's all I was after.

My orientation never changed. I do not know why you do not comprehend it. A person's orientation does not always correspond to what they tell themselves and others. Ted Haggard was "straight" while he had sex with gay prostitutes, for instance.

I agree with you here, but I am also saying that an alternate interpretation is that your orientation has in fact changed, and you are lying to yourself right now. If in fact you have accepted that you were lying to yourself and others when you said you were bi, why would you accept with such confidence that you have it correct now?

I've tried explaining this to you many times, but I've come to accept that you are simply not bright enough to comprehend all of the complications involving societal norms, pressures, and homosexuality's role in it. This isn't an insult, it's genuine. You cannot comprehend it, so I'm no longer going to try to enlighten you.

Ok, fair enough. I'm pretty sure you understand my position but are so committed to yours that it's automatically rejected. I do understand your position, and I'm not sure why you would think otherwise.

You say people can change their orientation throughout their life. Anyone who can do this is bisexual.

That says nothing about me personally though.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Are you saying I don't really LOVE my dog?

Never said that... and dogs are irrelevent to this discussion. You are bringing it up only as a smoke and mirror.

So you tell your wife you are happy to be married to such a beautiful person as her?

Again... has nothing to do with the discussion... I love my wife and she is my life partner.

And they are unable to do that right now? There are no laws that bar them from living with whomever they choose to live for as long as they like.

But unfortantely, they don't have laws that will protect that relationship. Gays should have the same rights as straight people. To say otherwise is to be bigoted and advocating discrimination.

So we should give them to whomever wants to adopt? Why screen at all?

Never said that... I said that ANY couple that passes the screening should be able to adobt, gay or straight.

Why a couple? Wouldn't an individual do the same thing?

Got me there... I did say couple. Frankly, I think that any single person that can prove they can provide a loving and secure home should be able to adopt as well.

Then provide some evidence of this statement.

Then provide some evidence that they can't provide a loving home... You haven't so far.

I've already proved this is not the case. Asher admitted that gay couples are less stable.

That doesn't prove that gays can't provide a loving home. Straight people break up too.. yet you have no problem with straight people adopting. The chance of a break up has more to do with the couple... not stereo types.

I think it's very clear, you don't care at all about the welfare of the child, since you are willing to give the children to ANYONE who says that they love children and want to have them. You've said that children should be screening them, you want to do absolutely anything to get them out of the system.

Another lie on your part... I've said that all should be screened. I've said you should ask children what they would want so you would understand how much they must hate state care... but never did I say it should be up to them. And I did say we should be doing all we can to get kids into loving homes... which is why gay people should be allowed to adopt if they pass the screening.

The solution isn't to just do away with screening altogether, but instead to encourage more couples to adopt.

Again... never said to do away with screening... and yes, we should encourage more couples to adopt, including gay couples

I agree, but that's not an excuse to place a child in a situation where the protections against abuse are not there. Again, do no harm is the first priority. The state isn't responsible for the fact that children are put into their care, that is life, the state is responsible for where the children are placed.

Yep... screen the people, and if they can provide a loving home... gay or straight... let em adopt.

Do you sincerely believe that there is less abuse of men in gay relationships then in straight ones, when by their own admission I've shown that lesbian relationships show more abuse then straight ones?

You have proven no such thing. You don't even know how to read the studies you produce as proof. The one you did even admits it can't make any conclusions.

Can't you accomplish that by taking your children to mass and still have them exposed to religion? You've not shown me why religion ought to be kept from children because of priest abuse, nor have you shown me why we should overlook teacher abuse, which is far more serious, since they have much more time with your children.

Why risk exposing kids to religion when there is a high risk that they will get abused by a clergy person.

They have to get education... but they don't need religion. The risk is higher than the return
Especially if the religion is teaching our children to discriminate against others.