Marriage, Gays, and Atheists

[Boris Godunov]

Since BK has failed to produce actual statistics that show children raised by gay couples have higher instances of abuse, why is anyone even engaging him on it? It's just another example of him making up whatever lies he feels he needs to justify his arguments and hoping by throwing out enough bull**** some of these lies won't get called. It's the Gish Gallop.

[Ben Kenobi]

And answer me this, Ben: Why do you stand in the way from me marrying my SO?

I'm not. Legally you can get married here in Canada whenever you wish. The only one holding you back from marrying is you.

There's no abuse, there's no cheating/promiscuous sex, and it's a happy relationship. We just want to marry to get the same benefits, in name and otherwise, as my brother and his girlfriend and my parents.

You want the acceptance and love from folks that you see as part and parcel of marriage. I'm sorry Asher, as you'll find out having the name does not preclude the substance.

Why is that so wrong? We aren't even having a religious ceremony for it, so you can kick the church excuse to the curb.

On a personal basis? You are basically depriving yourself of a relationship with a wife and children, and the joy that your mother and father, and your brother and his wife will have in their life. I know you've been burned by women, Asher, and I've seen how you pour out your anger and frusteration as to how evil women can be, which is why I'm not convinced that you are making a decision that is in your best interests, long term.

I see either you or your partner dying young, while your parents and your brother and his wife are around with your families. That is what I see as your future. I think you have a better option then such in your life, and if you choose this road, that will be the outcome.

Around ~30 we're seriously considering adopting a kid or two.

Then why aren't you marrying a woman, Asher if you want children?

Why would you tell that child they can't have a loving family in their own home, and they must continue to live in a group home?

Why should a child be deprived of a mother for the rest of his life?

[Ben Kenobi]

Since BK has failed to produce actual statistics that show children raised by gay couples have higher instances of abuse, why is anyone even engaging him on it?

I did provide statistics.

Why don't you actually bother to read my post?

[KrazyHorse]

Has Ben admitted that he craves teh **** yet?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
I'm not. Legally you can get married here in Canada whenever you wish. The only one holding you back from marrying is you.

YOU ARE IN THIS VERY THREAD TALKING ABOUT WHY YOU SUPPORT NOT ALLOWING GAYS TO MARRY.

You are the most dishonest douchebag ever, holy ****...

You want the acceptance and love from folks that you see as part and parcel of marriage. I'm sorry Asher, as you'll find out having the name does not preclude the substance.

Why are you telling me what I want, you being the person who has never been in a committed relationship and likely never will?

On a personal basis? You are basically depriving yourself of a relationship with a wife and children, and the joy that your mother and father, and your brother and his wife will have in their life.

But I'm not. My partner provides me the joy of a wife, and I can have children as well.

I know you've been burned by women, Asher, and I've seen how you pour out your anger and frusteration as to how evil women can be

I've never been burned by women. I've dated one woman and I dumped her because she wanted to start having sex. I'm a good Christian boy, see.

The misogynist trolls are just that, misogynist trolls.

which is why I'm not convinced that you are making a decision that is in your best interests, long term.

I see either you or your partner dying young, while your parents and your brother and his wife are around with your families. That is what I see as your future. I think you have a better option then such in your life, and if you choose this road, that will be the outcome.

Why the **** would we die young? Oh my God you are INSANE.

Then why aren't you marrying a woman, Asher if you want children?

Because I am a homosexual.

You really have no idea how this all works, do you? You're bisesxual and thinks everyone else can just choose who they love just because you can.

Why should a child be deprived of a mother for the rest of his life?

What can only a female provide a child that is already born?

[Asher]

What does God do to liars and dishonest people in Hell?

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


I did provide statistics.

Why don't you actually bother to read my post?

I've re-skimmed the thread and still see no links you've made to support this.

So since I'm clearly dumb, help me out -- re-cite it. It should be easy since in your mind you've already done it.

[Ben Kenobi]

Of course there is a fundemental difference between men and women

Thank you. This is why the union between a man and a woman is not the same as the union of a man and a man and a woman and a woman.

Again, what other people do doesn't have any effect on a marriage

Ming, what does marriage mean to you? Can you define it for me in your own words?

More prevalent based on questionable studies which show only a small percentage difference. And totaly ignores that the highest rate of sexual abuse and physical abuse can be found in state run instititutions.

So the option to remove suffering is to employ surgery which could result in even greater suffering?

Stable family... yes. Simple screaning can show no matter WHAT type of coupld can offer a loving home.
Again, the worst possible situation is leaving them in state care.

Worse then an abusive adoptive family? No.

I say we ask the kids if they would prefer to continue getting no love and abused in a state institiution or whether they would rather have a loving family even if it's a gay couple That would be doing the real job...

Do we ask the children to screen their own adoptive parents? That is the responsibility of the agency, not the children.

Using your logic, EVEN IF, the slim percentages show that abuse might be slightly higher with a gay couple, it is still FAR lower than the abuse they take in state facilities.... So... it's better to get them to gay couples as soon as posible because it's better for the kids

No, and for one good reason. State care is temporary. As soon as an appropriate family can be found the child will be placed in adoptive care. If the child is placed in an abusive adoptive family, that will last until the child is old enough to escape the family, which is subjecting them to 15 years of hell.

The world isn't perfect. Every child should be adopted by the Cleavers and live happily ever after. Well this is the real world. Why should we DENY children the chance for happiness with a gay couple, and FORCE them to continue to live in state facilities where they are getting abused.

Again, why should we deprive a child of a mother and a father. I'm not talking about June Cleaver, do you seriously believe that these children have NO chance of being adopted by a family of a married mother and father? I think they do, and that if there aren't enough, we need more of these families to step up and choose to adopt children.

I think you can be loved by a gay couple, so your argument is completely out the door

Where did I say that children ought to be adopted by any couple who professes to love them?

I am arguing that it is worse to leave a child in a situation where the HIGHEST RATE of abuse occurs

So you'd rather condemn a child to a lifetime of abuse to remove them from a temporary situation?

Again... I say let them choose... You would be shocked at how few would choose the state over a gay couple.
By not giving them that chance, you are the one depriving them of their rights.

Again, do we let children screen their own adoptive parents? That's a horrible idea.

And using your logic of slight percentage differences for abuse... You do know what the worst rate of child sexual abuse by a profession is. Yep, Clergy.

No, it's teachers.

I'm going to have to ask you to provide citations Ming, since you are the one asserting this.

So using your logic, we should not ever expose chilidren to religion since that is the highest chance of being abused.... Probably a higher chance than if they were adopted by a gay couple

No, I am arguing that you shouldn't leave children alone with priests, just as you shouldn't leave children alone with public school teachers.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Thank you. This is why the union between a man and a woman is not the same as the union of a man and a man and a woman and a woman.

"Man has penis, girl has vagina. Ergo, marriage should only be for heterosexuals." -- Ben Kenobi

Ming: Can we vote somebody off the site?

[Ben Kenobi]

SINCE ASHER AND BORIS CAN'T READ POSTS

One survey found that same-sex cohabitants reported significantly more intimate partner violence than did opposite-sex cohabitants. Among women, 39.2% of the same-sex cohabitants and 21.7 of the opposite- sex cohabitants reported being raped, physically assaulted, and/or stalked by a marital/cohabiting partner at some time in their lifetime.

Patricia Tjaden & Nancy Thoennes, U.S. Dep't of Just., NCJ 181867, Extent, Nature, and Consequences of Intimate Partner Violence: Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey, at 30 (2000), available at www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/pubs-sum/181867.htm

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
SINCE ASHER AND BORIS CAN'T READ POSTS

One survey found that same-sex cohabitants reported significantly more intimate partner violence than did opposite-sex cohabitants. Among women, 39.2% of the same-sex cohabitants and 21.7 of the opposite- sex cohabitants reported being raped, physically assaulted, and/or stalked by a marital/cohabiting partner at some time in their lifetime.

Patricia Tjaden & Nancy Thoennes, U.S. Dep't of Just., NCJ 181867, Extent, Nature, and Consequences of Intimate Partner Violence: Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey, at 30 (2000), available at www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/pubs-sum/181867.htm

Where's the statistics for men?

And I'm sure you already know the issues of unreported domestic abuse in heterosexual households. It's actually a major issue...most women don't charge or report their husbands for it.

That very article has an interesting disclaimer for you:

In addition, there are many gaps in the scientific
literature on intimate partner violence, such as
the level of violence committed against men and
women by same-sex intimates.6 Little empirical
data exist on the relationship between different
forms of intimate partner violence, such as emo-
tional abuse and physical assault.7 Finally, little
is known of the consequences of intimate partner
violence, including rate of injury and victims’
use of medical and justice system services.

Further, it says on page 36:

Research on violence in same-sex relationships
has been limited to studies of small, unrepresen-
tative samples of gay and lesbian couples. Re-
sults from these studies suggest that same-sex
couples are about as violent as heterosexual
couples.

Again you display tremendous dishonesty and a fundamental lack of integrity.

[Ben Kenobi]

Why are you telling me what I want, you being the person who has never been in a committed relationship and likely never will?

You asked me for my opinion, as to why I think it's PERSONALLY wrong for you, so there you go.

Oh, and before you spout off about me not being in a committed relationship, why don't you define that first?

But I'm not. My partner provides me the joy of a wife, and I can have children as well.

With him? How on earth is he your wife?

The misogynist trolls are just that, misogynist trolls.

Oh, really? You've only been doing that for what, 5 years now?

Why the **** would we die young? Oh my God you are INSANE.

Why? That's what tends to happen. Prolapsed rectums anybody?

You really have no idea how this all works, do you? You're bisesxual and thinks everyone else can just choose who they love just because you can.

What on earth makes you think I'm bi?

What can only a female provide a child that is already born?

I'll ask the same question I asked Ming. Do you believe there are fundamental differences between men and women?

[Ben Kenobi]

"Man has penis, girl has vagina. Ergo, marriage should only be for heterosexuals."

So if you cut your **** off, you become a woman?

[KrazyHorse]

Argg. You quoted him and I was forced to look at it.

Ben, you incredible ****wit, those statistics are for the lifetime prevalence of cohabitant abuse against women who have ever cohabited with women. Right in your ****ing link it says that the great majority of cohabitant abuse on women have ever cohabited with women was perpetrated by previous male partners.

In other words, women who are abused by men are more likely to become lesbians. Is this supposed to be some kind of revelation? You ****wit.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
With him? How on earth is he your wife?

He provides the same benefits. He's my life partner. Not sure what you do not comprehend?

Oh, really? You've only been doing that for what, 5 years now

No, since November 1999. Can you do that math?

Why? That's what tends to happen. Prolapsed rectums anybody?

Oh sweet jesus, you are incredible.

What on earth makes you think I'm bi?

You laugh, but I know it. I've got a sixth sense for this thing. If anything you're actually gay. You're a Ted Haggard type.

Additionally, your casual assertion that I should just choose to marry a woman implies you don't see why this is not possible. The implications from there should be obvious.

I'll ask the same question I asked Ming. Do you believe there are fundamental differences between men and women?

Physically, yes.

I believe every person, as a person, is unique and can be loved. A life partner does not need to have opposite genitalia to you to provide a loving, supportive spouse that makes you happy.

I don't expect you to understand what love is, but you should at least make an effort. Love is not something exclusive to genitalia...

[Ming]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Thank you. This is why the union between a man and a woman is not the same as the union of a man and a man and a woman and a woman.

Nobody has ever said it's the same... but love is not something that can only happen between a man and a woman.

Ming, what does marriage mean to you? Can you define it for me in your own words?

It means spending my life together with the person that I love. And that state gives us rights to protect our union of love.

So the option to remove suffering is to employ surgery which could result in even greater suffering?

No... the greater suffering is leaving children in the most abusive situation... which is state care.
And again... there is a risk no matter what family adopts, and you have to show RELIABLE research showning any SIGNIFICANT difference. Remember, there is a screaning process... and potentionally bad situations, straight or gay, can be weeded out.

Worse then an abusive adoptive family? No.

More abuse occurs by the state.

Do we ask the children to screen their own adoptive parents? That is the responsibility of the agency, not the children.

It is the repsonsibility of the agency to find loving homes... And the kids have a RIGHT to get out of the most abusive situation... state care.

No, and for one good reason. State care is temporary. As soon as an appropriate family can be found the child will be placed in adoptive care. If the child is placed in an abusive adoptive family, that will last until the child is old enough to escape the family, which is subjecting them to 15 years of hell.

More children stay in state care than are adopted. They get a life of hell until they can leave legally. The chance of an abusive adoptive family is FAR less than state care abuse. If you are a single white baby, you get adopted. If you are an older child, the chances of adoption are slim.

Again, why should we deprive a child of a mother and a father. I'm not talking about June Cleaver, do you seriously believe that these children have NO chance of being adopted by a family of a married mother and father? I think they do, and that if there aren't enough, we need more of these families to step up and choose to adopt children.

Look at the stats... the kids don't have a chance of being adopted. Again, white babies... high chance. Once they get older, little chance. There are not enough families by a long shot. Way too many kids stay in state care until they turn of age. You can claim we need more families to "step up" yet you don't want gay couples to be the ones stepping up.

So you'd rather condemn a child to a lifetime of abuse to remove them from a temporary situation?

There is only a SLIM chance of that lifetime of abuse, which is about the same between gay or hetero couples.
The chance is FAR higher in state care... and it is very seldom temporary.

Again, do we let children screen their own adoptive parents? That's a horrible idea.

Eliminating potential adoptive parents simply because they are gay is the horrible idea. Too many kids are stuck in state care... and to deny them a chance at happiness simply because a couple is gay is doing them a big disservice and doing them more harm.

No, it's teachers.

Nope... by percentages, it's clergy. However, if the clergy person also teaches, the odds go up big time.

The clergy has far more incidents of child sexual abuse than gay couples

So let's keep religion away from all children. Using your logic, it would be criminal to expose them such a high risk of potential trouble