Marriage, Gays, and Atheists

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Where would you set the threshold?

Probably about an IQ of 60. It'd weed out people like you.

[MrFun]

I missed the post where Kenobi said homosexual-based behavior is akin to an addiction.

Wow . . . . he knows no boundaries in continuing to insult people like this.

[Ben Kenobi]

The only thing that changes is when a person realizes he is gay and finally comes to accept it and then chooses to come out to family and friends.

I've seen folks flip both ways.

The declaration is just that, a declaration of where they stands now.

His sexual orientation never changed. He was always a gay man before he came to admit this to himself that he is.

So no one who comes out goes back again? I call BS.

The only change this gay man made is his behavior, not his sexual orientation.

There's a difference? I thought you were saying that it wasn't a choice.

[Ben Kenobi]

Probably about an IQ of 60. It'd weed out people like you.

Hmm, that was a waste of time.

I still qualify.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

I've seen folks flip both ways.

The declaration is just that, a declaration of where they stands now.


So no one who comes out goes back again? I call BS.


There's a difference? I thought you were saying that it wasn't a choice.

Sex orientation is not a choice; that is what I have always said. Behavior is the part that is a choice.

And as for those gay men who have gone to one of the quack-doctors to get their sexual orientation "changed" they really have not changed their sexual orientation no matter how often they "declare" themselves to now be straight. They had gone back to being in denial.

[Ben Kenobi]

You continue to distort other people's arguments.

I was arguing with Ming.

My point never has been that you should marry anyone/anything that you love. If you are romantically in love with someone with whom you are sexually involved with, or plan to become sexually involved with soon, then you may wish to marry that person if both of you want to sustain a life-long commitment.

Ok. What if I'm already married and I become romantically in love with someone whom I plan to get sexually involved with soon. Should I get married to them?

I'm explaining all of these rudimentary basics to you that pretty much everyone else understands. No one here says that because you love someone or something you should get married with him or it.

The point I'm trying to make is just because you love someone doesn't mean you can or should marry. I know you think it's stupid to talk about basic things, but they are essential in any discussion.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

Ok. What if I'm already married and I become romantically in love with someone whom I plan to get sexually involved with soon. Should I get married to them?

The point I'm trying to make is just because you love someone doesn't mean you can or should marry. I know you think it's stupid to talk about basic things, but they are essential in any discussion.

You either get marriage counseling to avoid falling into the affair trap, or if there are serious underlying problems that simply will not allow for the marriage to work anymore, you two get a divorce. Then go get involved with the other person.

I'm so glad that you and I agree though that you shouldn't marry just anyone or anything that you love. You may still have something like ten percent functioning brain cells intact.

[Ben Kenobi]

Not unless you are saying you are saying you are only straight because you say you are straight, and you are capable of being sexually attracted to both genders but choose females...in which case you are bi.

First off, it's arguable as to whether sexual orientation is fixed for anyone, let alone this subset. There's no empirical evidence for that statement.

It's all women. I'm not attracted at all to the female anatomy, just as I'm sure straight men are not at all attracted to that of the male anatomy.

That would square with what you said about what's above the neck not having anything to do with your choice in partners.

I'm going to enjoy seeing how things work out for you in the future Asher.

It's really simple, you only choose to complicate it to excuse your homophobia.

Again, there's no evidence that sexual orientation is fixed, and certainly your own feelings have changed.

I never said, nor implied, they were the same. But it is hard-wired for me to be attracted to men, not women. I have been all of my life.

Which is why you used to swear up and down that you were bi. I get it now. When the time comes you'll revert back and say it was just a phase.

I like how you imply there's only one study. There's many. It's generally accepted now, scientifically, that there are biological differences in how gay and straight brains are wired.

Did I deny that as such? No. What you do changes the way in which your brain works. It's true of everything. I'm not surprised to see that straight and gay men have different brain chemistry because they've been using their brain in different ways. You'll see similarities with smokers and drinkers. This is no different.

This is not the generally accepted scientifical consensus, and in fact many studies point to the mother's hormone levels during birth as being a key factor in a child's sexuality.

Scientific consensus once believed that the sun revolved around the earth. This is no different. Just because there is a consensus is not proof that it's the right conclusion.

As usual, there are more factors than you can care to know or understand, so stop defaulting to your opinion that this is all a choice or a result of behaviour rather than acknowledging the scientific evidence that it is not.

Perhaps you should actually address the argument, rather then handwaving by your appeal to consensus.

I like how you say being gay is like a form of addiction. That's amazing, you're so awesome.

If you understood what I was saying it would make perfect sense. The analogy applied to straight people too. I don't see why you claim 'bigotry' when the statement explicitly applies to both.

ONCE AGAIN. Sexual orientation is not just what someone says, and if somebody is constantly flip-flopping on who they are GENUINELY ATTRACTED TO, they are simply BISEXUAL. I can never be attracted to women, even when I tried VERY HARD for years.

But he came out. That's the point. Just because you came out doesn't make that true. He said the exact same things you say now about the 'process' of coming out, and then later on change his mind. Of course his oh so tolerant gay friends abandoned him.

Whether you are different, that's not the point. If you can choose, you are bisexual. If you cannot choose, you don't even ascribe to your opinion you spout here -- what an intellectual dishonest Kenobi you are.

It is very much a choice.

Yeah, I'm the loser here. Did you notice no one -- NO ONE -- is taking your side on this? Everyone, from republicans to democrats to communists are mocking you here. You are way, way wrong. And you are also a loser. Also, you lose this argument.

I've got the Gay-team on me.

Are you Mr. P?

[Ben Kenobi]

And as for those gay men who have gone to one of the quack-doctors to get their sexual orientation "changed" they really have not changed their sexual orientation no matter how often they "declare" themselves to now be straight. They had gone back to being in denial.

Thank you. I was waiting for that.

So let's get this straight.

1. He was lying to himself all the while

2. He came out and this was the first time he was being true to himself.

3. He then decides to return to his old life, as you said lying to himself.

So it's very clear here. The only truth is when someone actually admits they are gay. No one can ever lie about coming out, and no one can ever choose to stop being gay.

So this 'sexual orientation' thing is only fixed one way. It's like a stuck lightswitch. Once you flip it you can't flip it back.

[Ben Kenobi]

You either get marriage counseling to avoid falling into the affair trap, or if there are serious underlying problems that simply will not allow for the marriage to work anymore, you two get a divorce. Then go get involved with the other person.

But I love her. Why shouldn't I be able to marry her because I love her in a romantic manner?

I'm so glad that you and I agree though that you shouldn't marry just anyone or anything that you love. You may still have something like ten percent functioning brain cells intact.

And thank you for conceding a very important point here. If someone who is already married is not allowed to marry the person whom he has fallen in love, then gay marriage should be banned too.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Thank you. I was waiting for that.

So let's get this straight.

1. He was lying to himself all the while

2. He came out and this was the first time he was being true to himself.

3. He then decides to return to his old life, as you said lying to himself.

So it's very clear here. The only truth is when someone actually admits they are gay. No one can ever lie about coming out, and no one can ever choose to stop being gay.

So this 'sexual orientation' thing is only fixed one way. It's like a stuck lightswitch. Once you flip it you can't flip it back.

Such a bad analogy you provided. Sexual orientation does not even flip one way. You are always straight, gay, or bisexual, period. No flippiing involved. The only flipping that happens is with behavior.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

And thank you for conceding a very important point here. If someone who is already married is not allowed to marry the person whom he has fallen in love, then gay marriage should be banned too.

That person can marry someone else once he gets a divorce.

[Ben Kenobi]

Such a bad analogy you provided. Sexual orientation does not even flip one way. You are always straight, gay, or bisexual, period. No flippiing involved. The only flipping that happens is with behavior.

So who should we believe then. The man when he is coming out or the man who after he came out said he was grossly mistaken?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
First off, it's arguable as to whether sexual orientation is fixed for anyone, let alone this subset. There's no empirical evidence for that statement.

There's plenty of empirical evidence, from the studies you claimed you've seen earlier. Evidently you haven't read them.

Besides which, there's no empirical evidence to the contrary either. You are making a LOT of assumptions that are not supported by any evidence, and on top of it you admit they are not true for you (eg, you cannot decide you are gay and **** men) and everyone here who is gay is also telling you it is not true.

It's complete bigoted rhetoric that isn't even internally consistent. You just find it convenient to use to excuse your bigotry.

That would square with what you said about what's above the neck not having anything to do with your choice in partners.

I'm going to enjoy seeing how things work out for you in the future Asher.

I love how you're either too dumb to comprehend what people say, or you're too dishonest to take what people say as they mean them. This is why no one is siding with you. Even if they may agree with you, they don't agree with the disgusting way in which you engage in arguments.

Again, there's no evidence that sexual orientation is fixed, and certainly your own feelings have changed.

I'm not sure why you are this dense. My own feelings have never changed. I have said this explicitly and repeatedly.

Do you need me to explain with a Muppets show or using Barney episodes or something? Are my words to big? Tell me what I can to to communicate with you.

Which is why you used to swear up and down that you were bi. I get it now. When the time comes you'll revert back and say it was just a phase.

You are so clueless. I cannot comprehend this stupidity. Genuinely perplexed...

I never "swore up and down" I was bi. I identified as bi during a phase where I was beginning to deal with my homosexuality. I dated women and even had sex with one but I was never attracted to them. I was never heterosexual and I was never bisexual, I was homosexual the entire time but tried to convince myself (and others) that I was heterosexual, then bisexual before I finally admitted I was neither.

Scientific consensus once believed that the sun revolved around the earth.

That's a terrific example. Science came with evidence that the earth revolved around the sun, which contradicted the beliefs of the church *coughcough*. What did they do to that scientist and his evidence? Did they acknowledge it? Tell us, Ben.

Man, what a dumb example to bring up. Classic Kenobi.

It is very much a choice.

If sexuality is a choice, you are saying you have the capability of choosing to be homosexual and attracted to and exclusively have sex with men.

So, do you?

If you say yes, then you are not straight.
If you say no, then your assertion is incorrect.

So simple, yet so awesome. Yes or no, Ben...yes or no?

[Ben Kenobi]

That person can marry someone else once he gets a divorce.

Why is that?