What in the name of god is bible study?

[Boris Godunov]

I'd say it's developed into a symbiotic relationship these days, but in terms of its origins, it's hard to argue that the religious doctrines arose from the societal values of the time, not vice-versa. Unless one accepts that a deity was really handing out moral precepts some 4-5 thousand years ago...

I would say that, more often that not, anti-gay bigots are using religion as a convenient excuse for their beliefs, rather than religion successfully convincing people who would otherwise be beacons of tolerance that gays are the devil.

[Ben Kenobi]

Boris!

Welcome back. It's only been, what, 4 years?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
I'd say it's developed into a symbiotic relationship these days, but in terms of its origins, it's hard to argue that the religious doctrines arose from the societal values of the time, not vice-versa. Unless one accepts that a deity was really handing out moral precepts some 4-5 thousand years ago...

I would say that, more often that not, anti-gay bigots are using religion as a convenient excuse for their beliefs, rather than religion successfully convincing people who would otherwise be beacons of tolerance that gays are the devil.

MARKY MARK! YES! HE HAS RETURNED!

I'll buy a mattress off you if I ever get to Portland.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Boris!

Welcome back. It's only been, what, 4 years?

Thanks! 2.5 years, I believe.

I went to look at some Colonization info and got sucked back in. Friggin black hole of the OT forum...

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Asher

MARKY MARK! YES! HE HAS RETURNED!

I'll buy a mattress off you if I ever get to Portland.

I've got one of those futuristic tempurpedic mattresses now, and I'm not giving it up. I do own my own place now, though!

[Ben Kenobi]

Dude, religion is not the primary cause of anti-gay bigotry.

Right result, wrong argument.

Is it bigotry when you say that someone who is a murderer belongs in jail because he acts on his impulses to kill other people? Actions can be bad, people are not. People are only in the wrong when they choose to do things that are wrong. Someone who has an impulse to kill other people is not guilty of anything until he actually acts on those impulses.

The reason the Episcopal church is splitting is not because the church isn't welcoming to gay people, but because it is no longer following the teachings of Christ. Christ says that everyone is welcome in the church. Gay people can come into the church and listen to the word of God. We are all sinners, without this, we would not be able to repent to God for our sins. No one is righteous, not one.

However, the church has a mission to preach the word of God to all sinners. It doesn't matter what your sin is, if your relationship is not right with God, you will suffer because of it. Why should the sins of one person be treated any different from anyone else's? This is where the episcopal church is in the wrong. In saying that these sins are ok, why can we trust the episcopal church to say that murder is wrong? Why should we give one person a free pass and not another?

That's the problem, and by choosing this path they've forgotten what they are all about. Church isn't just a social group, it's a mission. If you fail at the mission, you aren't helping the people that you profess to serve.

The difference between gay people and minorities is that gay people can choose not to act on their desires, while a black person cannot stop being black, any more then a white person can stop being white. If you argue that sexual orientation is not a choice, then rape is ok, because we cannot choose not to have sex. The reality is that we can choose if we want to have sex, and if we choose to use this capacity in the wrong manner, then we have sinned.

The disagreement is not between the Episcopal church and these bigots, but between the Episcopal church and Christ. Christ says that marriage was meant to be the expression of our sexual desire for one another and that everything outside of marriage is incomplete and disordered. It's like using a tool in the wrong way, you damage both the tool and the object you are applying the tool.

[Kuciwalker]

WB boris!

[Jaguar]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
I'd say it's developed into a symbiotic relationship these days, but in terms of its origins, it's hard to argue that the religious doctrines arose from the societal values of the time, not vice-versa. Unless one accepts that a deity was really handing out moral precepts some 4-5 thousand years ago...

I would say that, more often that not, anti-gay bigots are using religion as a convenient excuse for their beliefs, rather than religion successfully convincing people who would otherwise be beacons of tolerance that gays are the devil.

Exactly.


Also, REAL BORIS IS BACK!

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Jaguar
Dude, religion is not the primary cause of anti-gay bigotry. Generic prejudice is the problem. Look at the Episcopal Church. Most of the leadership says "hey guys, maybe it would be alright to be nice to gays for a change" and half the church threatens to secede. Anti-gay sentiment isn't being handed down from on high. It's something that people just have, because people like to beat up on minorities that are different from them.

"sniff" Someone actually appreciates us.

Actually only a tiny minority threatened to leave. Most of the bigots left back in the 60s and 70s when PECUSA began taking an active role in civil rights and the ordination of women. Much of the tension originated from outside PECUSA. Some rich and powerful friends of "Focus on Family" began paying Anglican archbishops in Africa to protest PECUSA's actions. They've tried to have PECUSA ousted from the Anglican Communion and replaced with a group that split off years ago over the civil rights issue. It's ironic that they've asked prominent Africans to a support group which years ago disdained to allow even the possibility of having African-Americans in their congregations.

So far the crisis has been weathered. Bishop Desmond Tutu has rallied at least some of the African churches against this movement, and the rest of the Anglican Communion outside of Africa is on PECUSA's side.

[TheStinger]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Why would they date it to the schism? A much better argument is to date it from 476 when the Goths sacked Rome. Constantinople was far more wealthier and influential for the next thousand years afterwards.

By the schism Constantinople was already in a fatal decline. They don't mark the fall of Constantinople due to a withering of the faith, but rather its conquest to the infidels, and the loss of it's connection to the church.

The conquest of the Goths of Rome has much more in common with the conquest of Constantinople by the Turks then anything to do surrounding the schism.

For 4 centuries the church had been comparing itself to Rome which was considered the central pillar of the world, around which all else turned, and when Rome fell, the church had to adapt.

The interesting thing is that there hasn't been an institution which has lasted even half as long as the church. The English Monarchy is only to 1066.

The english monarchy goes back before 1066, however sthat date was a clear break form the past and ofetn history is taught from that date.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Asher

Non-Religious people who judge other people all the ****ing time.
Non-Religious people who enact secular law to enforce their bigoted beliefs.

Fixed

[Elok]

All right, Boris! :w00t:

[Asher]

@Ozzy:

Except it's not. The last time I checked there were no secular laws to enforce "bigoted" beliefs -- eg, no one is banning churches or banning Christians from marrying eachother.

Stick to arguing for sex with minors, Ozzy, because this stuff with substance doesn't suit you.

[Patroklos]

The problem is history teaches us homosexuality was not an "evil" part of society until religion began to become prevalent in those cultures.

What culture has religion not always been prevalent in?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Patroklos


What culture has religion not always been prevalent in?

I'm referring to modern religion (Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc).