What in the name of god is bible study?

[onodera]

Can you discuss homosexuality in some other thread?
We're trying to talk about bible study here. So far I've been able to understand that American Protestants, lacking any central authority (though I've though Jerry Falwell was some sort of a bishop, at least), place a great importance on studying the scripture personally.
However, I still think that this level of religiousness is abnormal for a modern world. It might be normal for the US, but to me it sounds like something from the XIX century.

Also, Ben. Mathematics is an unbounded subject. The bible is finite. It's thick (or not really thick, I'm not sure what American Christian denominations use the Old Testament), but it contains only that many facts and ideas. It is possible to study it completely. Well, it would be, but it contradicts itself, so I don't think that building your own personal bible out of the big one is something worth doing.

Dr. Strangelove, I agree with everything you've written about the ROC. It is a very corrupt enterprise.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Japher
There are even Jews for Jesus now, that really thows me for a loop.

It's a con. JfJ is a group of non-Jewish Christians whose aim is to convert Jews--it's not actually a bunch of Jewish people. The few Jews who have actually joined the group have oftened left, citing its deceptive practices and outright false claims about Jewish prophecy.

[fed1943]

Most of the Bible is not a religious text, but narrative or historical (it
doesn't matter here how much accurate it is).
But some parts, like the Genesis or the 10 commands, are indeed
mystic or religious.
And when people "study the Bible" are the last that are thought
about.
Best regards,

[snoopy369]

Can we replace the History forum with a Religion forum? That way the rest of us don't have to read these threads...

[The Emperor Fabulous]

Originally posted by snoopy369
Can we replace the History forum with a Religion forum? That way the rest of us don't have to read these threads...

You didn't have to read this thread. You pointed. You clicked. You bought it.

[Traianvs]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


First off, the Crusades were in response to Muslims invading and killing off the Christians in the East.

Okay that is bullcrap. Crusades were acts instigated by the popes against any dissident religion around in the times. That is why Innocentius III could order a crusade against the Cathars in the south of France. They stood in the way of religious obedience vis-à-vis the pope, and they stood in the way of political control of Northern French nobles over the south. Do you really want a list of all the heresies that were wiped out in between the 12-15th century by means of crusade or other ways? I don't think so

The Byzantines were threatened by muslims yeah, but the pope didn't give a rats ass about the orthodox heretics. It was all powerplay baby. We all know the popes from the Middle Ages onwards in particular were a bit at a loss for the lack of worldy power

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by snoopy369
Can we replace the History forum with a Religion forum? That way the rest of us don't have to read these threads...

Hear, hear. That would be the best way to ensure no religious argument ever occurs on Apolyton ever again.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
In the absence of religion, good people will do good things and evil people will do evil things.

But it takes religion for good people to do evil things.

religion is like any other organization - organized crime if there is no accountability, and with religious organizations there usually isn't... OK there are some rules and murder of "good" members is usually not allowed and murder of others is subject to the political power issues and considerations... the rest of the rules apply to the lower level members but leaders usually find a way to circumvent them without too many problems ...authority abuse is the strong point of most of them ... pretty sad considering what most of the religions have as it's core...

really it is like the government of the membership... same rules apply... it is only that the modern government (yes with total incompetence and the rest) have more checks and balances than religious organizations and the good thing is that modern religious organizations (given their inherent structure) do not wield as much power as they did in the past...

the point being - it's jsut human nature at work

[Felch]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
To heresy? The First Rome fell to the Goths. The second to the Turks and the Third to communism.

The quotes were there to indicate that I don't share that view. The whole "third Rome" thing is Muscovite / Romanov propaganda to justify the title of Czar. I was poking fun at that.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave

religion is like any other organization - organized crime if there is no accountability, and with religious organizations there usually isn't... OK there are some rules and murder of "good" members is usually not allowed and murder of others is subject to the political power issues and considerations... the rest of the rules apply to the lower level members but leaders usually find a way to circumvent them without too many problems ...authority abuse is the strong point of most of them ... pretty sad considering what most of the religions have as it's core...

really it is like the government of the membership... same rules apply... it is only that the modern government (yes with total incompetence and the rest) have more checks and balances than religious organizations and the good thing is that modern religious organizations (given their inherent structure) do not wield as much power as they did in the past...

Yes, yes--but that's not the gist of the saying I quoted. The point is that in things like government or any other secular structure, good people aren't going to cheerfully commit evil acts just because they've been told. That's because very few if any people get their moral precepts from such entities. I've never met a real life Javert, someone who actually derives their moral certitudes based on what a bureaucracy states in its policies.

Religion is different, because it claims the be the ultimate dispenser of moral virtue, and therefore even good people will believe what a religious text says is morally good, in spite of what common sense might dictate. An example is the Biblical genocides. Otherwise good people accept the God-ordained massacres of men, women and children by the Israelites as morally acceptable because God commanded them, but recoil in horror at Darfur and Rawanda and the like. It makes no sense, but it shows that religion is capable of making good people rationalize monstrosities unlike anything else. If it's seen as the dictate of an omnipotent deity, believers will see it as good, even though it's obvious to thinking people that it's reprehensibly evil.

[Felch]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
In the absence of religion, good people will do good things and evil people will do evil things.

But it takes religion for good people to do evil things.

Not exactly

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Felch
Not exactly

I don't think we can prove that the people who gave the full 450 volt shocks were good people to start with.

I furthermore doubt any of them could give a coherent moral justification for why they did what they did in that experiment and more imporantly why it was the right thing to do. That's a far cry from religion, wherein people can and do justify their evil acts as morally good because the holy book tells them so.

[Japher]

You can keep telling me that the Bible teaches love, mercy, and foregiveness, but having actually read excerpts of the bible containing murder, stoning, and all that kind of fun stuff...I'll have to call you on your bull****.

I actually use to live near Apple HQ and I spoke with several people who work there, and I can tell you that Apple only makes quality products and is an excellent company that should be valued at $200/share.
Whatever Asher, my 3 year old daughter can blow holes in that line of reasoning. I expect better from you, for some reason.

The Bible is a crutch for people. Whether it's to provide faith to shelter you from the realization that life is pointless, or to provide an excuse to wage wars of bigotry and murder.

The Bible is not a crutch anymore than a tree branch is a cane. If those of ill or little faith use it as such it is only due to their own inginuity that it has become what it was not intended to be.

If you wear rose tinted glasses everything will look red.

I feel bad for Christians who do good because they believe it will get them into Heaven, or that by good deeds they will inherit what was promised. In much the same way I look on others who do bad because they believe it is whats right. The Bible teaches to love because you are loved, not because you desire love in return. Those who do bad generally quote from the old testement. It's funny, in my mind, because it is all those actions that caused God to send Jesus in the first place!

[OneFootInTheGrave]

well in that point yes - when in the normal government the source of power is "normal" powerplay, murder et all, but at least they are trying to hide it (dependable how powerful they think they are)

while religious authority is put on an imaginary relationship with xzy thus "whatever I say is right" becomes so... well in that sense you need religion to justify murder, but other belief systems fill that role just as well in absence of religious authority like nationalism.

It's human nature in sense "claiming higher ideals" to justify what is being done for personal gain. Religion fills those shoes pretty well, but in the absence of it - it will be some other "greater good"...Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot etc... just 20th century equivalents of " middle-ages popes" working through the state instead of the church... (edit: and claiming higher moral ground while doing their stuff)

[Felch]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
I don't think we can prove that the people who gave the full 450 volt shocks were good people to start with.

I furthermore doubt any of them could give a coherent moral justification for why they did what they did in that experiment and more imporantly why it was the right thing to do. That's a far cry from religion, wherein people can and do justify their evil acts as morally good because the holy book tells them so.

Well how can you say that the religious people who commit atrocities were "good people to start with"? It's just your personal bias versus the cold facts of experimental results.