What's heaven like?

[FrostyBoy]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


You'd be my hero.

I don't think you really understand. I've never heard anything properly. It's like looking at the world through dark lenses. Everything is blurred and dimmed, distorted and clipped.

To hear as it's supposed to be? That would be amazing. Like finally being able to see for the very first time.

I have a 50% hearing loss in both ears from birth, I know what you are talking about to a fair degree. When I take out the aids, I can only hear at most, one loud sound, if there are no loud sounds, it becomes very serene.

When I look at evolution, I see hope in science, I see that bodies can change through DNA, I see that bodies can be improved and fixed. When I look at God, I cannot see that, I only hear or read bogus stories, stories are not evidence, they are not good enough, it's just hope, it's just there to make you feel better about the world. But Evolution is many magnitudes more rewarding once you understand it and appreciate its humbling power and simplicity.

[Ben Kenobi]

Except for that whole "eternity" bit. If one posits an afterlife, what if someone does change his or her mind during that time and accepts your God?

You'd know as soon as you died, and realised it wasn't the end. You could change then, but by then it would be too late.

With the way it's being described, it sounds like they're **** out of luck--hence, his forgiveness and love is limited.

Which is why our life here is so important. He gives everyone a chance to choose to be with him or to walk away.

[Q Classic]

Originally posted by Jon Miller


I am not Elok, this is his argument.

Are you familiar with Paul? In Romans, he says that Jews are condemned becuase they have the law. And so they know they sin. And that gentiles are condemned as well, because they have their reason and know that they sin.

I think that Paul would agree with you that you can have some moral compass by using your reason.

Where I (and he, I think) would disagree with you is that you can always pick right by using your reasoning.

Easy ones about raping little kids aren't the difficulty. They are the ones that if you can't determine them (and I think many of those that do such things can), then you are almost without hope. It is in more complicated times of life that we need God's guidance.

JM

And this, honestly, is where we disagree.

Why implicitly trust some intangible figure to guide you on the "morally correct" path? There's no proof that it truly is "good"--unless one manages to find reasons to believe it so; in other words, using reason to accept a certain amount of faith.

Positing that there is a God, one must still rationalize that belief and rationalize the acceptance of His moral code.

[FrostyBoy]

Originally posted by Jon Miller


Actually, brain scientists disagree with that now.

JM
(Of course, what the brain mostly knows about when a child is born, is how to learn.)

Yeah, well now you're crossing the line between instinct and knowledge.

Care to elaborate?

[Q Classic]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


You'd know as soon as you died, and realised it wasn't the end. You could change then, but by then it would be too late.



Which is why our life here is so important. He gives everyone a chance to choose to be with him or to walk away.

So what you're saying is that God's love and forgiveness is quite limited, not infinite as we are led to believe.

[FrostyBoy]

Able to infinitely supply, but perhaps, exclusive to members only, Mrs Snuggles?

[Ben Kenobi]

I have a 50% hearing loss in both ears from birth, I know what you are talking about to a fair degree. When I take out the aids, I can only hear at most, one loud sound, if there are no loud sounds, it becomes very serene.

Yes, then you do understand. I have partial hearing as well, and I always wonder what I am missing out.

When I look at evolution, I see hope in science, I see that bodies can change through DNA, I see that bodies can be improved and fixed.

I hope for that to, and maybe one day they will be able to fix us. I don't know if that will happen in my lifetime, but I do know that I'll have that in heaven if I make it there.

The other thing is that our bodies will decay as we get old. So even if science can fix our ears, eventually they will return to what they were.

But Evolution is many magnitudes more rewarding once you understand it and appreciate its humbling power and simplicity.

I feel the same when I look up at night, at the stars. I see in that simplicity the work of someone far more skilled at building things.

[Q Classic]

Originally posted by FrostyBoy
Able to infinitely supply, but perhaps, exclusive to members only, Mrs Snuggles?

Which does, of course, mean that it is not infinite.

[Q Classic]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
I feel the same when I look up at night, at the stars. I see in that simplicity the work of someone far more skilled at building things.

So do I.

But not someone. Something.

Y'know, physics.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Jon Miller


Ramp up your addiction levels a lot. To the point where you can't not smoke.

That is sin.

Yes, you aren't free.

In fact, I would say if you still have a strong desire to smoke often, that you still aren't free from your smoking addiction. Your body might be free of it, but your mind isn't.

JM

I know what you are saying, but this discussion started with respect to authoritarianism. In that context, freedom means the opposite to complete submission to authority. So you aren't making an valid argument.

[Ben Kenobi]

So what you're saying is that God's love and forgiveness is quite limited, not infinite as we are led to believe.

It depends on how you see love. God lets us have free will, and allows us to reject him if we choose to do so.

That to me is far more of a show of love, then the alternative. He will not force us to love him, he wants us to choose him over everything else out there.

I don't think he stops loving those who are condemned in hell, I think it greatly grieves him. He separates himself not because he has stopped loving them, but because they have chosen to reject God.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Mrs Snuggles

And this, honestly, is where we disagree.

Why implicitly trust some intangible figure to guide you on the "morally correct" path? There's no proof that it truly is "good"--unless one manages to find reasons to believe it so; in other words, using reason to accept a certain amount of faith.

Positing that there is a God, one must still rationalize that belief and rationalize the acceptance of His moral code.

The God I worship is good. This is a fundamental beleif, prior even to my beleif in Christianity.

I would change my beleif in Christianity before I changed my beleif that God is good.

JM

[FrostyBoy]

Originally posted by Mrs Snuggles

Which does, of course, mean that it is not infinite.

Yes it does.

God: I have an infinite membership cards. Do you want one?
You: Yes
God: Are you a member?
You: No, how do I become a member?
God: Admit to me your most naughty secrets and tell me you love me
You: **** off


He has an infinite membership cards. Whether you want one or not, has nothing to do with the number of cards he can hand out.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Kidicious


I know what you are saying, but this discussion started with respect to authoritarianism. In that context, freedom means the opposite to complete submission to authority. So you aren't making an valid argument.

Umm, but the reason why you are free, is that you are free from sin.

God isn't authoritative. He just takes all the desire to smoke away... forever. As well as everything that caused you to desire to smoke in the first place.

Now smoking isn't as powerful, or as addictive, or as pervasive, as sin. I am just using it as an example, so please focus on the concept.

You could still decide to smoke. But it is bad for you, and not pleasent, and harmful to those around you. So why would you ever do so?

JM

[Q Classic]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
The God I worship is good. This is a fundamental beleif, prior even to my beleif in Christianity.

I would change my beleif in Christianity before I changed my beleif that God is good.

JM

Yes, for you there exists a fundamental axiom is that "There is a God, and He is Good"; it is that assumption that drives your reason--which has led to your faith.

You're willing to change faiths (based on what? reason?) before altering a basic axiom. Which is fine, because so long as you maintain the notion that "God exists and is good", you have, in some way, used your reason to come to a moral compass.