What's heaven like?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
That is the point. With sin, you aren't free. You can't decide not to do it.

Sure I can. I just decided not to commit adultry just now.

When you are freed from sin, you can now decide not to do it.

Deciding not to decide for yourself is not freedom. It's the exact opposite.

And, the reasoning goes, none who have seen it's effects would ever choose to do it, if they weren't enslaved to it.

God isn't authoritarian. He wants you to be free. As the Bible says, "My yoke is easy, and my burden is light".

JM

What you are saying is that human beings are completely incapable of making choices for themselves so they must do exactly as God says. Nothing could be more authoritarian than that. Human beings are capable of making choices for themselves. More often these are better choices than your church prescribes.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Kidicious

Sure I can. I just decided not to commit adultry just now.

You can decide not to do a specific, easy to determine sin. You can't decide to never sin.

Deciding not to decide for yourself is not freedom. It's the exact opposite.

You are freed from your addiction. Only than do you have the freedom to decide not to do it.

What you are saying is that human beings are completely incapable of making choices for themselves so they must do exactly as God says. Nothing could be more authoritarian than that. Human beings are capable of making choices for themselves. More often these are better choices than your church prescribes.

Huma beings are incapable of never sinning. I agree with that. And so, particularly in situations where they are unable to reason out what sin is, they should follow God's lead. But that is a side issue of what we are talking about.

We are talking about what happens when you get to heaven. There, people will be freed from sin, completely. They will be capable of sinning still, they will never choose to, however. And not just because they are puppets. They will be able to determine what is sinning, and because of their freedom from sin, will be able to choose not to do it.

You are conflating two issues. One, is our ability to reason out what is sinful and what isn't. Two, whether we are freer submitting to God or not submitting to God.

It doesn't take very long looking at the world, to know that all humans make terrible choices, and most make many terrible choices. And yes, I include followers of God in this, unfortunately (just because they should follow God's lead, doesn't mean they do so.).

JM

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Jon Miller


How is there any information irreversibly lost to God?

Remember, God is not a creature within the universe. He could just create a new universe....

JM
(Yes, I am a physicist)

But how can someone outside a universe observe it?

[FrostyBoy]

Yet again, another religious debate ends up in an intangible, cross-eyed post.

[FrostyBoy]

I love it when Christians tell me to not read the Bible from Genesis, start at Mathew.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Heraclitus


But how can someone outside a universe observe it?

Why would it be difficult for God?

I am having a hard time understanding your reasoning here. I have the feeling that you are assuming that God != God.

JM

[Kidlicious]

JM,

What would you think if a Chinese citizen said that the Chinese government isn't authoritarian because they know what is best for the Chinese people. This is what you sound like. Remember we aren't Christians. Your language doesn't make any sense to us because we haven't decided that Christianity is always right.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by FrostyBoy
I love it when Christians tell me to not read the Bible from Genesis, start at Mathew.

I think Genesis is a great place to start.

JM

[Q Classic]

Originally posted by FrostyBoy
I love it when Christians tell me to not read the Bible from Genesis, start at Mathew.

Well, Genesis and Deuteronomy have some very inconvenient passages.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Kidicious
JM,

What would you think if a Chinese citizen said that the Chinese government isn't authoritarian because they know what is best for the Chinese people. This is what you sound like. Remember we aren't Christians. Your language doesn't make any sense to us because we haven't decided that Christianity is always right.

I thought we were talking about heaven?

God gives us freedom in heaven. He gives us freedom here on earth also, that doesn't mean, though, that all of our choices are correct just because we are free to make them.

God is never forcing you to do something or not to do something. Unlike the Chinese government.

How is taking away your addiction forcing you to do anything? Especially if that is what you wanted? (which is why I am an annihiliationist and not a univeralist) You can still choose to sin, you just won't.

JM

[FrostyBoy]

Originally posted by Jon Miller


I think Genesis is a great place to start.

JM

I agree. Fantasy is way more interesting.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Mrs Snuggles

Well, Genesis and Deuteronomy have some very inconvenient passages.

They were written for people in a very different situation than we are now. Everyone but a few Christians (and Jews and Muslims?) agree.

Also, the Bible is about man's relationship with God. Yeah, man (and the corruption inherent within him) is within the Bible.

JM

[Q Classic]

Originally posted by Jon Miller


They were written for people in a very different situation than we are now. Everyone but a few Christians (and Jews and Muslims?) agree.

Also, the Bible is about man's relationship with God. Yeah, man (and the corruption inherent within him) is within the Bible.

JM

Oh, I know. During the stage of my life when I was a believer, I did use that rationalization.

Since I no longer believe, I accept it when others use it, but that doesn't mean I have to hold to it when arguing against it as a whole.

[FrostyBoy]

God does not GIVE us freedom, he ALLOWS us freedom.

Giving us freedom would unbind us from his laws.

We as humans went from Nature > Religion > Nature

How long till we end up in the ****hole Religion again.

Everything's more peachy when it's just Nature.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Jon Miller


Why would it be difficult for God?

I am having a hard time understanding your reasoning here. I have the feeling that you are assuming that God != God.

JM

I'm assuming you are defining God as an omnipotent. But don't you also agree that God follows the natural laws he created and leaves us our free will? Now if this is true then God by observing the entire universe is in fact affecting and the entire universe, meaning that he is tampering with our decision making processes.