War it is. Part IV.

[onodera]

Originally posted by PLATO
Exactly. If the Russian posters here were intellectually honest they would recognize what Putin and his lapdog have all but openly said. This is about Russia's self proclaimed "sphere of influence". It has nothing to do with the pawns of South Ossetia.

Yes, it's about a sphere of influence. You can't expect your neighbour to be openly hostile and get away with it. That's what you're doing to Cuba, even though they've never tried to retake Gitmo.
That's what Monroe Doctrine was about. That's what the "democratic west" was (and is, except the old Europe is slowly distancing themselves from the US) about, that's what COMECON was about.

This whole mess is clearly a pre concieved Russian plan that they instituted because they thought they could get away with it.

We might've set everything up, but it was a necktie-eater from my avatar who had started the mess.

[onodera]

Originally posted by PLATO


The reason the world looks at it differently is easy to see:

1.) Russian aggression scares the hell out of people. No one knows, except maybe Putin, if this is just the opening move or not in the reestablishment of the Russian empire

Yeah, yeah, "ze Bear has avakened".

2.) Georgia is a democratically elected government with growing ties to mainstream Europe.

Oh, come on. Is it some sort of a holy cow, that "democratically elected government"? Saakashvili got elected the first time as a leader of the coup, and the second time by crushing the opposition. Medvedev is more democratically elected than he. We also have growing ties to mainstream Europe.

3.) Energy resources move through this region and Russia attempting to gain control of them worries people based on Russia's demonstrated willingness to use energy as an intimidation technique.

Well, it's not like we can use aircraft carriers as an intimidation technique...

Okay, is half past midnight here, and I'm going to sleep. See you all in the morning.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by onodera

Yes, it's about a sphere of influence. You can't expect your neighbour to be openly hostile and get away with it. That's what you're doing to Cuba, even though they've never tried to retake Gitmo.
That's what Monroe Doctrine was about. That's what the "democratic west" was (and is, except the old Europe is slowly distancing themselves from the US) about, that's what COMECON was about.

There is a treaty for Gitmo and we have a lease. The current government may not like it, but it is there. It is also not the subject of any international debate on its legitimacy that I know of. I will be happy to look at a link from an International authority saying that it is.

WRT the Monroe doctrine. It was put into place to dispell European spheres of influence. Specifically to end Europes policy of using military force to collect money. Sounds like we need a Monroe Doctrine for The Caucasus to keep the Russian sorry azzes under control to me.

We might've set everything up, but it was a necktie-eater from my avatar who had started the mess.

This is just hilarious. So Georgia's choices were to let rebels indiscriminately shell Georgian villages or to try and restore order on their own territory? Yeah right.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Oerdin


This has always been about Russian expansionism. The South Ossettians (the ones not ethnicly cleansed) voted to be annexed by Russia but it got laughed out of diplomatic circles because they didn't let ethnic Georgians vote.

Ethnic Georgians accounted for only 30% of the population. If all of them voted "no" the vote for independence would still be carried.

[chequita guevara]

I have yet to see any evidence that South Ossettia was shelling Georgian villages.

In any event, if the American posters here were honest, they would admit this has nothing to do with Russian aggression and everything to do with Russia not asking the United States for permission first.

[Lancer]

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Serb


That's because your so-called "free" Western mass-media is even far from objectivity than Soviet Pravda (at its peak) ever was.
The sooner you'll realize that your media portrays the aggressor as a victim and the war criminal, authoritarian nationalist (a fascist/nazist actually) who pogrommed a single opposition TV-stastion, murdred his political rivals, jalied the opposition, crushed the anti-president riots with brutal force and finally forged the elections, as a DEMOCRAT and a LIBERAL,
THE SOONER YOU WILL WAKE-UP.

But so far, most of you guys are just happy by the bullsh!t your meadia is feeding you.

But Serb, he's a Harvard lawyer! He probably could have had any position in the American governmant short of the Presidency, yet he chose to return to Georgia to lead his country towards the sweet light of freedom.

Also I note that in the films, we never actually see the soldiers doing the firing, that the ammunition in the feed belt never seems to move even though the gun seems to be recoiling, that even though the gun seems to be recoiling and smoke coming from the barrel there's no sign of the bullets hitting buildings. Could the film have been faked?

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Comrade Snuggles
I have yet to see any evidence that South Ossettia was shelling Georgian villages.

In any event, if the American posters here were honest, they would admit this has nothing to do with Russian aggression and everything to do with Russia not asking the United States for permission first.

Oh God, I'm imagining a twisted version of "Barney" here. Shaun, the cute little bespeckled red-head, is holding a Kalishnikov over poor bound-up little Minh, and he chimes to Barney: "Mother, may I?"

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by onodera
But no, we simply destroyed their military and left.

When did you leave?

[Lancer]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
When did you leave?

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
When did you leave?

[Traianvs]

Thread is too long, but doesn't it basically come down to the following?

Saakasjvili was elected in the last elections promising he would reunite the country properly. He's very pro-west and hopes to join NATO so the risk of Russian military interference will be cleared once and for all. If he succeeds in getting Georgia to join NATO then taking back SO and Abkhaz territories will be a piece of cake. He prepares his scheme and multiplies the military budget with a whopping 40x. Meanwhile tensions at the border with the Russians have been a consistent feature of the frozen conflict for while now. Earlier Russia closed the border to Georgia, there is a Russian embargo on Georgian agricultural produce, the increased ties of Russian government with separatist leaders, the Russians shot down an unmanned Georgian drone etc etc.

The Olympics are about to start and Saak thinks the time is ripe to make a quick attack on SO. He has ignored earlier US warnings not to perform any military operation or other provocative measures towards Russia or SO. Furthermore he knows Russian troops are abundant and that they will intervene immediately, and he also knows he will lose heavily. In effect, Georgian military almost immediately gets defeated. A bit strange if you have planned a full-blown invasion of SO.
Saak crosses his fingers and expects Russia will retaliate in old-fashioned Soviet / Chechen style causing massive death amongst civilians. Thus he would get the world support being the small David fending off the Russian Goliath. He would seize the moment in order to get into NATO as quickly as possible (which would otherwise not happen for a long time because western powers had other international issues that had to be bargained. Taking Georgia into consideration would make matters even more complicated than they were already).

A bad gamble because there was not the uncontrolled violence that he expected (although there were casualties - it's war after all), and it seems lots of important politicians remain sceptical about Georgia joining NATO. It would get western powers into a world of pain they don't want to burn their hands on (grammar? ). The Caucasus is a ****hole they tend to avoid as much as they can. They prefer anonymous OSCE missions to Georgia and the Caucasus instead. Far more important issues are at hand after all, despite important oil pipelines running through Georgia.


Anyway that's how I see it now concerning Georgia (I could make another post about Russia's motives but don't want to elaborate too much). Any comments on this?

[Dr Strangelove]

There was a report of some shelling near the opening of the Roki tunnel, the only road link between Russia and South Ossetia. If Georgia had succeeded in destroying the tunnel Russia's attempts to reinforce the area would have been greatly hampered. They would have had to send in paratroopers or mountain infantry. Either would have taken more time, and both would hav meant that Russian reinforcemtns would have had no armor, giving Georgian forces a better chance of repelling them. I've seen a picture of the opening of this tunnel, it apprears to open beneath a fairly high cliff face, so to destroy it with artillery would mean placing rounds within a few feet of the opening. Better yet would be laser guided bombs. From what I've heard I don't think the Georgians really had the capacity to destroy the tunnel. It's a pity for them that they had no one in their military command with the knowlege to tell them that aforehand.

[chequita guevara]

They didn't shell the tunnel. They used cluster bombs.

[Lancer]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
There was a report of some shelling near the opening of the Roki tunnel, the only road link between Russia and South Ossetia. If Georgia had succeeded in destroying the tunnel Russia's attempts to reinforce the area would have been greatly hampered. They would have had to send in paratroopers or mountain infantry. Either would have taken more time, and both would hav meant that Russian reinforcemtns would have had no armor, giving Georgian forces a better chance of repelling them. I've seen a picture of the opening of this tunnel, it apprears to open beneath a fairly high cliff face, so to destroy it with artillery would mean placing rounds within a few feet of the opening. Better yet would be laser guided bombs. From what I've heard I don't think the Georgians really had the capacity to destroy the tunnel. It's a pity for them that they had no one in their military command with the knowlege to tell them that aforehand.

Is it a tunnel used by the population? Cars, trucks...? If so I would have had a car pull a small trailer full of C4. Could have lit the fuse(s) in the tunnel, detached the trailer, got out.