War it is. Part IV.

[Serb]

And what if it's a message to the West to do not unify Kosovo with Albania?

p.s. South Ossetians elected Kokoity, not Putin.

[Dr Strangelove]

Yes, it was Kokoity who expressed this desire. I didn't say that any Russian official has yet confirmed it as a plan. So far Russian officials have refused to comment upon Kokoity's proposal.

My point is that Kokoity is an idiot who can't keep a secret, 'cause I'm willing to bet that if annexing South Ossetia and Abkhazia is something the Russians are planning, I bet they weren't planning on announcing it until the furor died down.

AFAIK the NATO powers have so far prohibited the merger of Kosovo and Albania, though I wonder if it might happen sometime in the future.

[GePap]

S. Ossetia is not a viable independent entity, specially being completely surrounded by a hostile state and having a single access point to the outside world.

Abkhazia on the other hand is a viable microstate in terms of geography.

[Lancer]

Yeah but Putin wants it for his dacha.

[Dr Strangelove]

The point is that the Ossetians want to be his Dacha, but I'm willing to bet he didn't want them to spill the beans so soon. He may have to cut off Kokoity's ration of Androgenic Steroids.

[Serb]

Originally posted by GePap
S. Ossetia is not a viable independent entity, specially being completely surrounded by a hostile state and having a single access point to the outside world.

And their economy and a country as a whole being devastated by the war.

Abkhazia on the other hand is a viable microstate in terms of geography.

And they have no intention to join Russia. At least their president says so. And that's good.
Both Abkhazia and South Ossetia have Russian rubble as their currency. They speak Russian. In fact we have a common economic space and open borders. And a de-juro (de-facto we already have) full-scale defensive military alliance is just a matter of time (it's obvious they need it, they need Russian protection from Georgia).
So we actually don't need their formal integration to Russia.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Yes, it was Kokoity who expressed this desire. I didn't say that any Russian official has yet confirmed it as a plan. So far Russian officials have refused to comment upon Kokoity's proposal.

My point is that Kokoity is an idiot who can't keep a secret, 'cause I'm willing to bet that if annexing South Ossetia and Abkhazia is something the Russians are planning, I bet they weren't planning on announcing it until the furor died down.

He is not. It's not a secret at all in South Ossetia that they want to reunite with Northern Ossetia. They really want this. It's like asking a South Korean: "do you want to reunite with North Korea"? Same with Eastern and Western Germany. They are ONE artifitially divided people. But in the case of Ossetia, North is rich and safe and South is poor and a dangerous.

AFAIK the NATO powers have so far prohibited the merger of Kosovo and Albania, though I wonder if it might happen sometime in the future.

We'll see what happen next. Serbia will never accept that because Kosovo is the heartland of their state, their core land. Georgia, I guess, also won't accept the loss of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, but aside Kosovo, historically these are not core Georgian lands, but Abkhazian and Ossetian. And Abkhazians and South Ossetians have much more reasons to be independent than Albanians in Kosovo.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
The point is that the Ossetians want to be his Dacha, but I'm willing to bet he didn't want them to spill the beans so soon. He may have to cut off Kokoity's ration of Androgenic Steroids.

Aside his Georgian "I like to chew my tie" counterpart, the South Ossetian president is quite sane.


And to think that all wrestlers are idiots is just plain silly. Boxers being hit into their heads all the time, not wrestlers. Look at Putin he holds a 6th dan at judo, but he is far from dumb (actually otherwise).

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Serb

He is not. It's not a secret at all in South Ossetia that they want to reunite with Northern Ossetia. They really want this. It's like asking a South Korean: "do you want to reunite with North Korea"? Same with Eastern and Western Germany. They are ONE artifitially divided people. But in the case of Ossetia, North is rich and safe and South is poor and a dangerous.

That's not the point. The point is that Russia has repeatedly denied seeking territorial gain here. The remarks from Kokoity came shortly after a meeting between Kokoity and Medvedev. It makes it sound like the Russians were being disingenuous all along.

We'll see what happen next. Serbia will never accept that because Kosovo is the heartland of their state, their core land. Georgia, I guess, also won't accept the loss of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, but aside Kosovo, historically these are not core Georgian lands, but Abkhazian and Ossetian. And Abkhazians and South Ossetians have much more reasons to be independent than Albanians in Kosovo.

Abkhazia is actually more Georgian than the Georgians. It is part of the ancient Kingdom of Colchis mentioned in the saga of Jason and the Argonauts. They were seperated from the rest of Georgia when they were annexed by the Ottoman Empire. Eventually about half converted to Islam. They were re-united with Georgia after Russia absorbed them and the rest of Georgia. During their seperation their language grew somwhat distinct from Georgian, but the Abkhazian language is one of only 4 languages in the North Caucasian Language Group.

[Darius871]

So have the Russian aggressors left yet or what? This seemed to get booted out of the news right quick.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
That's not the point. The point is that Russia has repeatedly denied seeking territorial gain here. The remarks from Kokoity came shortly after a meeting between Kokoity and Medvedev. It makes it sound like the Russians were being disingenuous all along.

And our position somehow changed?
As far as I know, it doesn't - we recognize SO as an independent state and express no desire to annex it. There is nothing we can gain by annexing SO, except troubles. It's a small, poor and devastated country. They have no valuable resources, nothing of interest. Absolutely nothing. In fact we will have to pay for the damage Georgian did (and we already do). Nobody, but us will rebuild the republic.
How many countries sent their aid to South Ossetia?
EU, America, wtf? Where are you, you great humanists?
Those people were attacked, they are the victims of the Georgian aggression, did you help them?
No.
You preffer to help the aggressor who bombarded their capital and villages at night like a coward, who intentinally killed civilians with GRADs, tanks and heavy artillery.

Abkhazia is actually more Georgian than the Georgians. It is part of the ancient Kingdom of Colchis mentioned in the saga of Jason and the Argonauts. They were seperated from the rest of Georgia when they were annexed by the Ottoman Empire. Eventually about half converted to Islam.

You are wrong.
At the time time of the ancient Greece there were two kingdoms: the ancient Kingdom of Colchis (whose descendants are modern Abkhazians now) and the Kingdom of Iberia (whose descendants are modern Georgians now).
They were always two different people.

They were re-united with Georgia after Russia absorbed them and the rest of Georgia.

The Abkhazians were put under Georgian control by Russians against their will.
There was no happy re-unification of the same people ('cause they are not), but a forcible subordination of Abkhazians to Georgians, 'cause the Russians make their bet on Georgian elite as force to govern the region, not Abkhazian or Ossetian elites.

During their seperation their language grew somwhat distinct from Georgian, but the Abkhazian language is one of only 4 languages in the North Caucasian Language Group.

Whatever, I'm not a linguist. Caucasus is one big pain in the ass. One can dedicate its entire life to understand the relationships between peoples that populate the area and still don't have a clue.
What is relevant is that modern Abkhazians and modern Georgians are two separate people. And one of them considers the land of the other as his (and ready to expel/exterminate them to get that land), and the other do not want to be ruled/oppressed by aliens anymore.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Darius871
So have the Russian aggressors left yet or what? This seemed to get booted out of the news right quick.

Who is aggressor according to you?
Please, give me your retarded definition of the term "aggressor".

[Darius871]

Shelling evil terrorists in Tshkinvali = self-defense
Conquering half of a sovereign state in an undeniably disproportionate response, as opposed to "peacekeeping" in a "disputed" area = aggressor

[Serb]

Self-defense from what?

You call sleeping civilians an evil terrorists?

Great. No more questions.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Serb

And our position somehow changed?
As far as I know, it doesn't - we recognize SO as an independent state and express no desire to annex it. There is nothing we can gain by annexing SO, except troubles. It's a small, poor and devastated country. They have no valuable resources, nothing of interest. Absolutely nothing. In fact we will have to pay for the damage Georgian did (and we already do). Nobody, but us will rebuild the republic.
How many countries sent their aid to South Ossetia?

How do you want us to send aid to them, through Roki tunnel? If we ship aid to them routed through Southern Russia, how much is actually going to get to the South Ossetians?

EU, America, wtf? Where are you, you great humanists?
Those people were attacked, they are the victims of the Georgian aggression, did you help them?
No.
You preffer to help the aggressor who bombarded their capital and villages at night like a coward, who intentinally killed civilians with GRADs, tanks and heavy artillery.

Have you heard me disagree? GRADS are multi-tube rocket launchers designed for area anti-personnel suppression, and obviously a poor choice as an anti-artillery weapon and particularily a bad choice for use against an urban area.

You are wrong.
At the time time of the ancient Greece there were two kingdoms: the ancient Kingdom of Colchis (whose descendants are modern Abkhazians now) and the Kingdom of Iberia (whose descendants are modern Georgians now).
They were always two different people.

They were united around 1000 AD and remained united until invaders broke the kingdom apart in the later 15th century.

The Abkhazians were put under Georgian control by Russians against their will.
There was no happy re-unification of the same people ('cause they are not), but a forcible subordination of Abkhazians to Georgians, 'cause the Russians make their bet on Georgian elite as force to govern the region, not Abkhazian or Ossetian elites.

Was Abkhazia part of Georgia under Tsarist rule, or were they merged under the Soviet Union?

Whatever, I'm not a linguist. Caucasus is one big pain in the ass. One can dedicate its entire life to understand the relationships between peoples that populate the area and still don't have a clue.
What is relevant is that modern Abkhazians and modern Georgians are two separate people. And one of them considers the land of the other as his (and ready to expel/exterminate them to get that land), and the other do not want to be ruled/oppressed by aliens anymore.

I won't quibble with you about the behavior of independent Georgia's first president. He solicited the support of a gang of ultra-nationalist criminals known as the Mkhedrini who terrorized Georgia's minorities (and also the rest of the population). I don't think that Saakashvilli would permit a repeat of the depradations of 1991-1993 and if the Abkhazia and Ossetians would give it a try they could probably live in peace within Georgia now. OTOH by allowing the Mkherini to run amok Georgia rightfully lost the trust of the Ossetians and Abkhazia and therefore lost the right to rule them. I have a reservation about supporting Abkhazian independence though. Pre-1992 Abkhazians consitituted only 20% of the population of Abkhazia. Of the rest of the populations 45% were Georgians, 14% were Russians, and 15% were Armenians. The Georgians, Russians and Armenians were chased out of Abkhazia by 'troops' of the Confederation of the Peoples of the Caucasus under Shamil Basayev. It seems to me that these displaced peoples have rights too.

Oh, and I agree that the Caucasus must be a giant pain in the ass. Are you guys sure that it wouldn't be easier to just move that pipeline a couple hundred miles to the north?