War it is. Part IV.

[Serb]

Dude, those three ships cannot carry 4000 troops, nine hundred maximum (300 per ship).
As for the groud speed, as I've said we didn't have too.
Novorossiysk is a largest naval base on the Russian soil in that region. And a military base too. There are many military units and among them 7th Airborn division. And Russian Airborn divisions considered to be elite formations, a units of instant military readiness, ready to be deployed anywhere (within the range of our military transport aviation, of course) pretty soon.
I bet those 900 troops where parts of the 7th Airborn division.

[Patroklos]

Speed over ground is important Serb, because that is your actual speed of advance.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Speed over ground is important Serb, because that is your actual speed of advance.

We didn't have to march hundreds of kilometers to reach the airport to be airlifted into the battle zone.
As for the 58th army, first Russian tanks crossed the Russian-South Ossetian border 15 hours later after the bombing of Tskhinvali. I don't know the exact distance between the South Ossetian border and the place of their permanent location, but look at this map:



The distance from Vladikavkaz (where the HQ of the 58th army located) to the Roki Tunnel is less than 100km. And the distance between Roki Tunnel and Tskhinvali is about 40-50km.
Even if we assume that speed of the tank column is no greater than 20-30kmph then it takes only few hours to cover this distance.
There is nothing extraordinary here, just a good organization and maintenance.

[Patroklos]

Speed over ground is important Serb, because that is your actual speed of advance.

SOG is a naval term, at least how I was using it.

[snoopy369]

Shouldn't it be SOW then???

[Serb]

Originally posted by Patroklos


SOG is a naval term, at least how I was using it.

Then I get it wrong perhaps. What does "Speed Over Ground" mean?

[Colon™]

Originally posted by Serb


We didn't have to march hundreds of kilometers to reach the airport to airlifted into the battle zone.
As for the 58th army, first Russian tanks crossed the Russian-South Ossetian border 15 hours later after the bombing of Tskhinvali. I don't know the exact distance between the South Ossetian border and the place of their permanent location, but look at this map:



The distance from Vladikavkaz (where the HQ of the 58th army located) to the Roki Tunnel is less than 100km. And the distance between Roki Tunnel and Tskhinvali is about 40-50km.
Even if we assume that speed of the tank column is no greater than 20-30kmph then it takes only few hours to cover this distance.
There is nothing extraordinary here, just a good organization and maintenance.

15 hours?

"Close to midnight on 7 August 2008, a senior Georgian
military official announced that Tbilisi had decided to
restore “constitutional order” in South Ossetia.1 The
Georgians had declared a unilateral ceasefire several
hours earlier, after another day of fighting between
Georgian and Ossetian forces in and around the region’s
capital, Tskhinvali. But Georgia’s defence ministry
said South Ossetian militias had nevertheless continued
into the evening to heavily shell Georgian villages
and positions. By 1:00am on 8 August, Georgian
troops had launched a large-scale military offensive
on Tskhinvali, supported by artillery, and advanced
quickly.
At approximately 1:30am, tank columns of the Russian
58th Army started crossing into Georgia from the
Roki tunnel separating North and South Ossetia.2
Apparently, the Russians had anticipated, if they did
not actually entice, the Georgian move."

http://www.crisisgroup.org/library/documents/europe/caucasus/195_russia_vs_georgia___the_fallout.pdf

[Serb]

Georgians say so. NOW.

Just recall for a second when was the first time when you heard about the Russian tanks in Georgia?
When I started the original thread I was surprised that nobody else already did so, because the war was going on for hours already. But no, your media made it a top story only when we sent reinforcements to our peacekeepers and actually crossed the South Ossetian border.

Just open the original thread "It's war" and read first pages to refresh your memory.

[Patroklos]

Then I get it wrong perhaps. What does "Speed Over Ground" mean?

Historically, you measured a ship's speed by running a string with knots on it behind the ship. They had it calculated so that however many "knots" on the string were payed out in a certain length of time told you how fast you were going. You could tell how fast you were moving through the water, but what about currents and wind?

Today, we know how fast the screws have to turn (or the pitch they need to be at) in order to go a certain speed. We also measure our speed through something called a pit sword, whcih is a sensor on the hull that tells you have fast you are going by how fast the water passes by it.

However, both such measurements can be inacurate. If I am making turns for 25 but am going into the wind I might actually only be making 20 knots.

If I am measuring via pit sword and making turns for 25 knots and the seas are calm, the speed through the water will be 25 knots as well. If I am traveling into a current that is four knots, my STW will be 29ish while my SOG will be 21.

We use GPS to measure SOG these days, but you can do it via chart references as well (we do this all the time for practice, but use the GPS).

[Serb]

Get it. Thanks.
But Black Sea is not an open ocean and I just can't imagine any current in the Black Sea that can have a serious impact on a speed of such big ships, especially near the coast (and if you look at that map you'll that the shorter route from Sevastopol to Novorossiysk and then from Novorossiysk to Abkhazian port is to move alongside the coast). Plus there was no storm, afaik. So, in this particular case those factors are pretty irrelevant, imho.

[Felch]

Originally posted by Serb
Even if we assume that speed of the tank column is no greater than 20-30kmph then it takes only few hours to cover this distance.

20-30 km per day is historically pretty good speed, even for armor. Armor needs to move cautiously to avoid ambushes, and allow supply trains to keep pace.

However, in a country with a much smaller army, and a relatively friendly local population, I'm betting higher speeds are possible.

[Serb]

20-30 per hour not day. I was talking about the distance from Vladikavkaz to Roki Tunnel. It's a Russian territory. No fighting there.
Also, there were no Georgian troops to the North of Tskhinvali when we entered the Roki tunnel. They we still fighting in the city.

[Lancer]

Originally posted by Serb
Read that on Russian news sites.
A gossip, an information leakage from Kremlin or as our Lithuanian friend of Georgian GRAD operators loves to say - "a message" to Europe.
French foreign minister said yesterday they will discuss sanctions vs. Russia on their emeregency summit at Sept. 1. Today appeared gossips that we can turn off the valve if they really take sanctions against us. Nothing really serious just a little oral showdowns - you threaten us, we threaten you.

Interesting, thanks Serb.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Colon™


15 hours?

"Close to midnight on 7 August 2008, a senior Georgian
military official announced that Tbilisi had decided to
restore “constitutional order” in South Ossetia.1 The
Georgians had declared a unilateral ceasefire several
hours earlier, after another day of fighting between
Georgian and Ossetian forces in and around the region’s
capital, Tskhinvali. But Georgia’s defence ministry
said South Ossetian militias had nevertheless continued
into the evening to heavily shell Georgian villages
and positions. By 1:00am on 8 August, Georgian
troops had launched a large-scale military offensive
on Tskhinvali, supported by artillery, and advanced
quickly.
At approximately 1:30am, tank columns of the Russian
58th Army started crossing into Georgia from the
Roki tunnel separating North and South Ossetia.2
Apparently, the Russians had anticipated, if they did
not actually entice, the Georgian move."

http://www.crisisgroup.org/library/d...he_fallout.pdf

This so called independent report is lying piece of sh!t. Totaly pro-Georgian, but it's not surprising, since it's writen in Tbilisi/Brussels, 22 August 2008

In the reference to the text you quoted [2] it is said:

[2] - “Russian military hardware is moving towards Roki tunnel”,
Ossetian Radio and TV website, 8 August 2008, 1:27am,
available at www.osradio.ru;
I found this article. But first of all, notice that this site says that war started at 07.08.2008 // 23:42 local time.

Òîëüêî ÷òî íà÷àëñÿ àðòèëëåðèéñêèé îáñòðåë ñòîëèöû Þæíîé Îñåòèè
07.08.2008 // 23:42
Ïðèêàç ãðóçèíñêîãî ïðåçèäåíòà î ïðåêðàùåíèè îãíÿ íå ïðîäåðæàëñÿ è íåñêîëüêèõ ÷àñîâ. Òîëüêî ÷òî ñòîëèöà Þæíîé Îñåòèè âíîâü ïîäâåðãëàñü àðòèëëåðèéñêîìó îãíþ.  ãîðîäå ðàçäàþòñÿ âçðûâû. Íàñåëåíèå ñïóñêàåòñÿ â ïîäâàëû è óáåæèùà.

Íàïîìíèì, ÷òî ãëàâà Ãðóçèè ñîîáùèë, ÷òî ïðèíÿë áîëåçíåííîå äëÿ ñåáÿ ðåøåíèå, è, êàê ãëàâíîêîìàíäóþùèé, äàë ïðèêàç âñåì ïîäðàçäåëåíèÿì Ìèíîáîðîíû è ïîëèöèè ïðåêðàòèòü îãîíü ïî îñåòèíñêèì ïîçèöèÿì. Âèäèìî Ìèõàèëó Ñààêàøâèëè ïðèøëîñü îòäàòü ïðèêàç îòêðûòü îãîíü ïî Öõèíâàëó, ÷òîáû ñíÿòü ñâîè áîëåçíåííûå îùóùåíèÿ.

Îáñòðåë âåäåòñÿ ñî ñòîðîíû ãîðîäà Ãîðè, ãäå ñåãîäíÿ áûëî ðàçâåðíóòî 27 óñòàíîâîê çàëïîâîãî îãíÿ "Ãðàä".

Êàê ñîîáùàþò î÷åâèäöû, ïîäîáíûõ ñèëüíûõ âçðûâîâ íå áûëî çà âñå âðåìÿ îáñòðåëîâ. Ãðóçèíñêàÿ ñòîðîíà ïðèìåíÿåò ïî Öõèíâàëó ñèñòåìû çàëïîâîãî îãíÿ "Ãðàä".  ãîðîäå çà íåñêîëüêî ìèíóò îáñòðåëà ìíîæåñòâî ðàçðóøåíèé. Îãîíü âåäåòñÿ èç íàñåëåííîãî ïóíêòà Íèêîçè.

Ýòî ïîëíîìàñøòàáíàÿ âîéíà.

Îñåòèíñêèå âîåííîñëóæàùèå ïîêà íå îòêðûâàþò îòâåòíûé îãîíü. Èíòåíñèâíîñòü îáñòðåëà íàðàñòàåò. Ñòîëèöà Þæíîé Îñåòèè ïîãðóçèëàñü â ìðàê, îòêëþ÷åíî ýëåêòðîñíàáæåíèå ãîðîäà.

Áóêâàëüíî ÷åðåç íåñêîëüêî ÷àñîâ â Ïåêèíå ñîñòîèòñÿ îòêðûòèå ëåòíåé Îëèìïèàäû. Ïî âñåì îáùå÷åëîâå÷åñêèì çàêîíàì, óæå äîëæåí äåéñòâîâàòü ïðèíöèï îëèìïèéñêîãî ïåðåìèðèÿ. Îäíàêî, ó ãðóçèíñêèõ âëàñòåé ñâîè ïðèíöèïû.

Òîëüêî ÷òî êîììàíäóþùèé ìèðîòâîð÷åñêèìè ñèëàìè ãåíåðàë Êóëàõìåòîâ ñäåëàë çàÿâëåíèå. Îí îòìåòèë, ÷òî ñ íèì ñâÿçàëàñü ãðóçèíñêàÿ ñòîðîíà è çàÿâèëà, ÷òî íà÷èíàåò âîéíó.

http://www.osradio.ru/news/all/33.html

I don't have time to translate the full article ask Saras or any other Russian speakers. In short this article say that Georgians started a full-scale war and bombarding the capital with GRADs.

Now, on the same page we can see the time 1:27 (local time or 1 hour and 45 minutes after the outbreak of war)mentioned in your report .
[url]

http://www.osradio.ru/news/all/33.html

Ðîññèéñêàÿ òåõíèêà äâèæåòñÿ â ñòîðîíó Ðîêñêîãî òîííåëÿ
08.08.2008 // 01:27

Ïî Òðàíñêàìó îò Àëàãèðà â ñòîðîíó ïîãðàíè÷íîãî ïóíêòà Íèæíèé Çàðàìàã äâèæóòñÿ âîåííûå êîëîííû è îòäåëüíûå ìàøèíû ñ ëè÷íûì ñîñòàâîì, áðîíåòåõíèêà". Îñåòèíñêèì âîîðóæåííûì ñèëàì íåîáõîäèìî ïðîäåðæàòüñÿ ïðîòèâ ïðåâîñõîäÿùèõ ñèë ïðîòèâíèêà âñåãî íåñêîëüêî ÷àñîâ.

"Russian vehicles are moving towards the Roki tunnel.

Military columns, trucks with personel, cars are sighted moving from Alagir to Nizhni Zaramag (it's a custom at Roki tunnel) via Transcam (it’s a road). The outnumbered Ossetian armed forces have to hold on a few hours".

Now look at the map again and find Alagir.



So after 1 hour and 45 minutes a movement of Russian military and Ossetian volunteers was sighted near Alagir.
GREAT! Russians started to move forces to the border nearly after two hours since the war started and were still dozens of killometers away from the Roki tunnel and still didn’t have the order to cross it, BUT your so-called unbiased (made in Georgia) report use this article as proof that Russian tanks crossed the Roki tunnel at 1:30 local time.
JUST ****ING GREAT!!!

The first mention about Russian tanks on outskirts of Tskhinvali dated 08.08.2008 // 16:36 – 18 hours and 21 minutes from the outbreak of war.

Ðîññèéñêèå òàíêè âîøëè â ñåâåðíûå ðàéîíû Öõèíâàëà
08.08.2008 // 16:36
Ïî ïîñòóïàþùåé èíôîðìàöèè ãîðîä â íàñòîÿùåå âðåìÿ îáñòðåëèâàåòñÿ èç ãðóçèíñêèõ âåðòîëåòîâ. Ìèðíûå æèòåëè ïîêà îñòàþòñÿ â ïîäâàëàõ è óáåæèùàõ.

http://www.osradio.ru/news/all/31.html

I would strongly recommend Saras or any Russian speakers to read this site to get the picture from the South Ossetian side. To get what it is like to be under fire of Georgian pro-western, democrat, liberal (in fact a fascist) regime.
That’s all I’m going to watch the supercup now.

[Dr Strangelove]

Ooopppsss!!! Someone dropped the other shoe. The President of South Ossetia announced his dreams for uniting with North Ossetia to form an autonomous district of "Alanya" within the Soviet Unio,,,,,,,,,, er, Russia.


Wasn't he supposed to keep that secret for a few years or at least until after Albania annexed Kosovo? Really, that's what Putin gets for selecting an ex-wrestler to be President of South Ossetia.