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  • #91
    Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


    Sonderweg or "special path".

    Up until 1945, Germany's entire experience with democracy lasted from 1919 to 1933. That's 14 years of democracy.

    Add to that the very recent unification, as compared to Britain and France, and you've got an explosive mixture.
    That still doesn't really compare to Iraq. We could probably have a whole thread on that. Suffice it to say we disagree on this - I don't see Germany as a useful reference point here.

    India is prosperous, as a result of the Raj.
    That's a preposterous statement. For one thing, I dunno if "prosperous" is accurate wrt India. For another, how the hell do you know that it wouldn't be more prosperous if it hadn't been ruled by Britain? Colonialism was all about benifitting the mother country. I know Britain ultimately came to see India as a drain, but that was only at the end.

    Britain improved the infrastructure in India
    . True. You are certain that no such infrastructure would've been built without the Brits ruling the country? Why?

    and brought about a workable system for national unity.
    Leaving out that whole "partition" thing, you mean.

    If that were so, we would have seen a rebellion sweep across Africa demanding independence. That was not the case. Instead we saw Britain and France relinquish all of their colonial appanages within the span of 10 years between 1955 and 1965, leading to massive regional upheaval.
    What are you talking about? I'm saying that the great majority of the time, people in Africa were not ruled by Europeans. Then, for a rather brief period, Europeans ruled them. Then, they attained independence (with nations with borders drawn by Europeans, with governments modelled at least partly on Euro designs). You look at this and call independence an "experiment." WTF?

    India was much more managed. They had reliable and effective leadership in place.

    Democracy can be sustained if derived from the desire of the people, but I don't see a significant outcry in the form of rebellion from the people of africa, who for the most part have been betrayed by their leadership.

    I see no reason why democracy cannot be successful in Africa, but I don't feel that the sudden independence was helpful to them acquiring the experience necessary for a successful democracy.
    Neither colonialism nor decolonialization did much to advance democracy in Africa.

    -Arrian
    grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

    The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

    Comment

    • #92
      You're going schizo on me. You claimed that violence is at 2005 levels. I repeat, that is twice as wrong a claim as Oerdin statement.
      No, I followed YOUR request to us "late 2005/early 2006." See what happens when you start making random comparisons? I never claimed anything about 2005 that wasn't in rebuttal to your request to use the later months. In fact, I haven't made any claims other than Oerdin position and your adoption of it are wrong.
      "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

      Comment

      • #93
        We already established that I was correct about that (and you had to make a ridiculous selection of months to "demonstrate" otherwise). I've moved on.

        Once more, here is what you wrote:
        It was supposed to reduce violence from pre surge levels (early 2007), that it went much further than that and has reached (and continues to decline) 2005 levels is not a critisism.
        "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
        -Bokonon

        Comment

        • #94


          Ramo, you yourself asked me to use late 2005 instead of corresonding months, which I did to humor you not because I thought it was valid to do so. I even said exactly that, while saying several times there is no reason to use none corresponding months for this comparison. I said exactly that.

          So imagine that, if I use the cherry picked months you chose I come to the same conclusion. UNBELEIVABLE!!!

          and you had to make a ridiculous selection of months to "demonstrate" otherwise
          If by ridiculous you mean corresponding months, or the only sane way given Oerdin's OP, then sure. Thank you for saying yourself that using months outside of 2006 was totally your idea and ever usage of them in this thread was to point out yours and Oerdin's hackery.
          Last edited by Patroklos; July 22, 2008, 15:51.
          "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

          Comment

          • #95
            I repeat, we've already established that my original statement was correct, and you had to make a ridiculous selection of months to "prove" otherwise. I moved on. I'm talking about another statement you made:

            It was supposed to reduce violence from pre surge levels (early 2007), that it went much further than that and has reached (and continues to decline) 2005 levels is not a critisism.
            Again, that is about twice as wrong as Oerdin's statement if we do a month to month comparison (which appears to be your preference).
            "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
            -Bokonon

            Comment

            • #96

              Ir by ridiculous you mean corresponding months, or the only sane way given Oerdin's OP, then sure.
              By ridiculous, once more, I mean a.) asymmetric and b.) post-Samarra bombing. We just discussed this.
              "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
              -Bokonon

              Comment

              • #97
                Again, that is about twice as wrong as Oerdin's statement if we do a month to month comparison (which appears to be your preference).
                Ramo, that was me doing proofing what you stated. YOUR position, not mine.

                YOU:
                Again, it's clear that the pattern of violence in recent months most resembles a period in late 2005 and early 2006, not the much lower levels in early 2005, or 2004, or 2003 (as the graph he posted shows).
                ME (direct comparison):
                Jun-08 373
                May-08 396
                Apr-08 631
                Mar-08 819
                Feb-08 564
                Jan-08 485

                TOTAL = 3268

                Apr-06 808
                Mar-06 901
                Feb-06 688
                Jan-06 590
                Dec-05 344
                Nov-05 592

                TOTAL = 3923
                ME (corresponding month comparison):
                Apr-08 631
                Mar-08 819
                Feb-08 564
                Jan-08 485
                Dec-07 476
                Nov-07 471

                TOTAL = 3446
                Your position, put to proof, and shown to be lacking. Are you still confused?
                "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

                Comment

                • #98
                  point out yours and Oerdin's hackery

                  My hackery? This is becoming quite pathetic...
                  "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                  -Bokonon

                  Comment

                  • #99

                    Ramo, that was me doing proofing what you[b] stated. [b]YOUR position, not mine.
                    Your selection of months is still a.) asymmetric and b.) post Samarra. Are you sniffing glue?

                    Ramo, that was me doing proofing
                    I was talking about an independent statement. You characterized the current levels of violence as "2005 levels." If you do a little arithmetic, you would find that the past few months was 40% higher than the corresponding 2005 months.
                    "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                    -Bokonon

                    Comment

                    • #100
                      My hackery? This is becoming quite pathetic...
                      Agreed, your inability to comprehend basic logic is very pathetic, as is your inability to admit you were wrong.

                      The most funny part is where you can't seem to quote me saying what you think I did, but I can (and have quoted you saying just that). In that respect, you and Oerdin are also the same. Hasn't this been an awesome journey of discovery!

                      I was talking about an independent statement. You characterized the current levels of violence as "2005 levels."
                      In answer to your line of query concerning Nov 05 to Apr 06. Thats how YOU wanted to do it, not me. You specifically stated those are the months YOU were comparing, I specifically stated those were the months I wasn't.

                      If you do a little arithmetic, you would find that the past few months was 40% higher than the corresponding 2005 months.
                      Oh god, the self pwnage is delicious. You have made it a point to make my "ridiclous" methodolgy clear (corresponding months), so where is my comparison of Jan-Jun05 to Jan-Jun 08? Odd. But that was my methodology, you stated it yoursel several times...

                      So whose line of though was it that brought us to 05 in the first place? Who is the only one even worried about months in 05 in this thread? RAMO.
                      Last edited by Patroklos; July 22, 2008, 16:13.
                      "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

                      Comment

                      • #101

                        Your position, put to proof, and shown to be lacking. Are you still confused?
                        I'm not going to bother with spelling out the addition. I'm pretty sure you're capable of doing it yourself.
                        "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                        -Bokonon

                        Comment

                        • #102
                          Agreed, your inability to comprehend basing logic is very pathetic, as is your inability to admit you were wrong.
                          You're bordering on functional illiteracy here. Read what I write with a little more care...
                          "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                          -Bokonon

                          Comment

                          • #103
                            “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                            - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                            Comment

                            • #104

                              In answer to your line of query concerning Nov 05 to Apr 06. Thats how YOU wanted to do it, not me. You specifically stated those are the months YOU were comparing, I specifically stated those were the months I wasn't.
                              Where did I say 11/05-4/06? I specifically stated otherwise. Multiple times. Glue sniffing is bad for the brain.

                              And again, this is an independent statement. Once more, you characterized the current levels of violence as "2005 levels." That is 40% off, on a month to month basis.
                              "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                              -Bokonon

                              Comment

                              • #105
                                Who is the only one even worried about months in 05 in this thread? RAMO.
                                It was supposed to reduce violence from pre surge levels (early 2007), that it went much further than that and has reached (and continues to decline) 2005 levels is not a critisism.
                                "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                                -Bokonon

                                Comment

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