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How close is Canada to another NEP? If so, how soon til Alberta splits?

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  • How close is Canada to another NEP? If so, how soon til Alberta splits?

    I was reading the below article, and the usual array of ridiculous comments, and I'm starting to wonder if when the Liberals get re-elected (especially under someone as stupid as Dion), how soon until they make a play to nationalize Alberta's massive oil resources?



    Canada urged to amass oil wealth

    OTTAWA — The Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development is pushing Canada to adopt Norway's model for managing oil wealth, an approach Alberta has rejected.

    The Paris-based OECD, which represents 30 of the world's richest countries, yesterday urged Ottawa and Alberta to create asset funds with stringent rules to direct energy wealth into foreign investment.

    In a wide-ranging report on Canada's economy, it recommends the funds as a way of combatting the negative effects of a rising dollar and the emerging threat of inflation.

    The recommendation comes as sovereign wealth funds gather impetus in global markets and high-level authorities in Ottawa look at how setting up such a fund would benefit Canada's economy.

    In addition to a federal fund, the report suggests changes to Alberta's Heritage Fund, which has emphasized lowering taxes with oil wealth rather than investing and saving.

    “Alberta should implement allocation and withdrawal rules for its Heritage Fund; preferably it should save all its oil revenues in a foreign asset fund, as Norway does,” the OECD recommends.

    “The federal government should consider doing likewise for revenues resulting from transitory terms-of-trade gains.”

    The idea that Alberta and Ottawa should take excess revenues from the energy boom and invest outside the country, Norway-style, has been bandied about for years. It's a concept that has gained credibility with intellectuals, but one largely dismissed by decision makers who would rather use the money here and now.

    Although such a fund has not sparked much official interest until now, Finance Minister Jim Flaherty raised no major objections to its inclusion in the OECD report, according to sources. The report was reviewed by senior government officials who had the chance to comment before its release.

    Norway's fund is worth almost $400-billion (U.S.), is expected to double in size within 10 years and is a major global investor. Alberta's fund was worth $16.6-billion (Canadian) at the end of last year, and focuses on investing in Alberta. Ottawa has no such fund.

    A Norway-style fund, with rules for systematic and transparent investment of energy revenues outside the country, could solve many of Canada's problems, the OECD says.

    Such a fund would dampen the rise of the Canadian dollar based on oil prices – a rise harmful to the manufacturing sector – and help stamp out some of the inflationary pressure in Alberta now hurting households and squeezing companies eyeing expansion.

    It would also set aside some of the energy windfall for future generations at a time when Canada's population is aging and will likely need a big injection of government revenue to deal with rising health costs, the OECD said.

    And it would make Alberta a major investor on the world stage at a time when many major projects are crying out for money from sovereign wealth funds.

    “It's not [just] an exchange rate play. It's more of a fundamental issue,” said Angel Gurria, secretary-general of the OECD, who was in Ottawa yesterday to release the group's assessment of Canada. “It's mostly an intergenerational question.”

    There are signs that Alberta is inspired by Norway, even though the province has officially said it has no interest in following Norway's model of investing almost all of its oil revenues abroad.

    Provincial Finance Minister Iris Evans yesterday defended Alberta's model of using oil revenues to keep taxes low while spending interest from the fund. “Managing the pressures of a robust economy comes with a price tag,” Ms. Evans said. “We have to improve our infrastructure and get the capital in place to support the 103,000 people that moved here last year.”

    But the Heritage Fund has recently changed its focus to favour rates of return instead of economic development within Alberta, said Don Drummond, chief economist at Toronto-Dominion Bank, who has a keen interest in creating such a fund in Canada.

    The fund's management board has brought on two former TD executives who focus on finance and not the local economy. And there's a growing recognition that Alberta's excess of cash is overheating the economy and causing it harm, Mr. Drummond said.

    Until now, governments have preferred to keep their energy windfalls close at hand, increasing spending or paying down debt. At the federal level, officials have resisted the Norway-style proposal, saying they can't really calculate how much Ottawa earns from energy due to so many spinoffs.

    That's not an insurmountable problem, said Peter Jarrett, an OECD economist who wrote the assessment of Canada. It's just a matter of creating a model to estimate revenue flow, publishing it, and setting up the fund from there.

    “I think there is scope for doing so,” he said.

    A Norway-type fund is more suitable for Alberta than Ottawa, since the province owns the natural resources in question, said energy economist André Plourde, head of the University of Alberta's economics department.

    “In Alberta there is more and more pressure for people to think of this more seriously,” he said. “Don't be surprised if that kind of messaging comes out from the Alberta government in the next while,” especially tied to messages about climate change, he added.

    High oil prices are pulling Canada in disparate directions and, these days, creating more problems than they solve, the OECD assessment says.

    Previously, the energy boom had led to job and wealth creation spread across the country – though not in manufacturing. Now, however, as oil and gas prices soar, the costs outweigh the benefits, the 160-page report says.

    “With the gathering U.S. recession and depreciating U.S. dollar, the balance has been shifting,” it says.


    And secondly, if and when another NEP comes, would/should Alberta and/or Saskatchewan and/or BC high-tail it out of there? Especially as the current trends are going to virtually the whole of the east being "have not" provinces while the Western provinces are expected to pay billions of dollars in equalization payments...
    "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
    Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

  • #2
    Also, who the hell is the OECD and what the **** do they think they're doing telling Canada/Alberta how to run themselves?
    "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
    Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

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    • #3


      I think AB should ignore such ideas and continue being a boom bust economy.
      "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
      "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

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      • #4
        And it would make Alberta a major investor on the world stage at a time when many major projects are crying out for money from sovereign wealth funds.
        This is a teriffic idea Asher! Just think: Alberta could trade valuable oil money for sub-prime filled banks! Not to mention all the incompetence you could help subsidize.

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        • #5
          What's an NEP?
          John Brown did nothing wrong.

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          • #6
            National Energy Program. Fed policy in the 80's that drove AB nuts. They still hate Liberals today b/c of it.
            "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
            "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Felch
              What's an NEP?
              The Liberals nationalized Canada's energy policy in the 80s. Natural resources in Canada are the domain of provinces, but the federal government saw rising oil prices as a good source of revenue.

              The NEP kept oil prices well below the world market price. It was mandating generosity to the east coast of Canada at Alberta's expense.

              Alberta lost between $50B-$100B (which is a lot to a province of ~$2M at the time) during the years the NEP was in effect. Bankruptcy rates shot up 150%, unemployment with through the roof, foreign investors in oil (eg, the USA) were turned away, even house prices dropped 40% in a short period of time. In short, it was a hare-brained idea from out east (where most of Canada lives) to exploit Alberta to their benefit.

              It's the sole reason why people in Alberta think "liberal" is a four-letter word and have a distrust for the federal government.

              It wasn't until the conservatives game into power in 1986 and abolished the NEP that Alberta's economy began to recover.
              "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
              Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

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              • #8
                The province/federal split in Canada is interesting when considering the state/federal split in the US ... I wonder if the balance of power will swing one way or the other as a result of the oil issue?
                <Reverend> IRC is just multiplayer notepad.
                I like your SNOOPY POSTER! - While you Wait quote.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Felch
                  What's an NEP?


                  Blah

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by snoopy369
                    The province/federal split in Canada is interesting when considering the state/federal split in the US ... I wonder if the balance of power will swing one way or the other as a result of the oil issue?
                    That's the fear, especially as Ontario enters a recession while Alberta is still booming. Since the majority of Canada is in central Canada, I don't think it to be outrageous for them to overstep boundaries again and stake a claim in provincial resources.

                    Alberta hates the federal government even when a Calgarian is prime minister. Any movement towards federal takeover of provincial rights will be a massively big deal out west.

                    Perhaps the last straw?
                    "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                    Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

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                    • #11
                      A Calgarian? You mean a Torontonian carpetbagger like yourself Asher?

                      I think we should go yesterday. We'd get a better deal on lumber anyhow, and the folks in Alberta would counterbalance the freakshow down south here.
                      Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                      "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                      2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
                        A Calgarian? You mean a Torontonian carpetbagger like yourself Asher?
                        Harper has lived in Alberta since 1980. That doesn't make him a Torontonian to anyone of reasonable intelligence...he's also very much a Calgary Flames fan. And tell me which riding he represents and where he got his economics degrees?

                        Similarly, I'm 10 months away from moving back to Calgary.

                        Interestingly enough...Harper was a Liberal and part of the "Young Liberals Club" until the NEP. Then he became a conservative.

                        BTW, if BC joins Alberta in separation it'll be because you guys begged to come with us. You'd be lucky we'd let you join us.
                        "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                        Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

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                        • #13
                          Harper has lived in Alberta since 1980. That doesn't make him a Torontonian to anyone of reasonable intelligence...he's also very much a Calgary Flames fan. And tell me which riding he represents and where he got his economics degrees?
                          He lived there for 20 years. That's a pretty significant chunk. He's at best a transplanted westerner, who carpetbagged to Calgary because that's where the jobs were.

                          I don't see why being a Calgary Flames fan makes you an Albertan.

                          He represented Calgary West, and then later Calgary Southwest. Got his degree in the University of Calgary.

                          Interestingly enough...Harper was a Liberal and part of the "Young Liberals Club" until the NEP. Then he became a conservative.
                          I'm aware of that.

                          BTW, if BC joins Alberta in separation it'll be because you guys begged to come with us. You'd be lucky we'd let you join us.
                          Large deepwater port. More mines and trees then you can shake a stick at. I\m sure we'd be begging to join Alberta.

                          Hell I'd rather pay taxes to Edmonton then Victoria, with that new Carbon tax.
                          Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                          "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                          2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
                            He lived there for 20 years. That's a pretty significant chunk.
                            He hasn't lived there for 28 years, and when he did live there he didn't have a choice. You lose.

                            He represented Calgary West, and then later Calgary Southwest. Got his degree in the University of Calgary.

                            I'm aware of that.
                            So he's lived in Calgary more than any other city in his life, he roots for the Calgary hockey team, he represents a riding in Calgary, his home is in Calgary, he went to university in Calgary, and yet he's not a Calgarian. Wow, Ben.

                            Large deepwater port. More mines and trees then you can shake a stick at. I\m sure we'd be begging to join Alberta.
                            Mines and trees? WTF? That's small beans.

                            As for your port, who cares. Pipelines, *****es!

                            Tell me, Ben, how much does Alberta use your port right now? And would BC actually forbid Alberta's use of the port (which they'd pay for) had they not been in the same country? I don't think so.

                            Out of all of BC, Alberta, and Saskatchewan now...BC is the weakest link.
                            "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                            Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

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                            • #15
                              I guess it's a sign of the times that greed has replaced nationalism as the reason of choice for wanting to separate.
                              What?

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