US crusader sent home for handing out money

[Elok]

Just so you know Elok's position (I'm sure you were terribly curious):

1. This is not "forcing his religion," merely obnoxious, but

2. It does clearly endanger the mission and his coworkers, is a plain violation of a direct order, and generally indefensible. The military's treatment of this soldier has been, to my mind, exemplary. Also,

3. Ben is apparently not keen on reading comprehension skills. Or does not choose to employ them. To make clear that I do possess them, I should add that I know this comment has been made before.

[Patroklos]

Conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline.

That charge would be bull****. Just charge him with breaking general order #1 which, at least in the army, is a huge multipage catch all order which forbids just about everything in Iraq including prostilizing.

QFT.

Same for the Navy.

There is this crazy thing in this country called "separation of church and state", so it's wrong there

Doesn't apply here.

....and it's wrong because it's an attempt to impose another religion on the people we're suppose to be helping.

He is not imposing anything, nore is that action and "helping mutually exclusive.

The only thing wrong here is that he was doing it on government time. And that isn't even wrong if there was not a specific order against it.

The order is in fact illegal if someone were tried to apply it to say, a Marine talking to an Iraqi soldier about religion off duty.

He disobeyed an order and shoud rightly be punished for it, which I would imagine in this case will amount to a reduction in rank and docking of a few months pay, one of the two probably being suspended in lieu of good behavior for a couple months.

This is a criminal act, under the UCMJ. And it should be treated as such.

You have a misunderstanding of how the UCMJ is applied. This will be handed with NJP, which is not criminal in the slightest despite what the name of the UCMJ implies.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly
End of story. Really.

It will NEVER be the end of the story - not in the Beniverse...!

[Patroklos]

Wtf are you talking about? IT'S UNAUTHORIZED BECAUSE IT'S RELIGIOUS

It is unauthorized because it may insight violence, the same reason quite a few types or material are unauthorized.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben, you dimwit, the whole concept of religious freedom is only germane if we're talking about a functioning civil society.

Yes, and the purpose of having American troops there is to establish a civil society, correct?

And if Iraq were a funtioning civil society, then we wouldn't be occupying the place with our f*cking military.

True, but if we are the ones who are enforcing the rules, shouldn't that include religious freedoms?

So this has f*ck-all to do with the nature of religion in some mythical Iraqi society that has yet to emerge from the rubble, and everything to do with what practices the military sees as detrimental to its mission.

How so? I think it's very important and so do many Iraqis that there would be religious freedoms in Iraq, for Christians and other religious minorities.

Or is it your position that you now know better that military commanders on the ground what is and isn't detrimental to the mission?

I already said 4 or 5 times here in the thread, that I agreed he should be reprimanded and that he violated the military code. What more would you want me to say?

[Ben Kenobi]

He is not imposing anything, nore is that action and "helping mutually exclusive.

The only thing wrong here is that he was doing it on government time. And that isn't even wrong if there was not a specific order against it.

The order is in fact illegal if someone were tried to apply it to say, a Marine talking to an Iraqi soldier about religion off duty.

He disobeyed an order and shoud rightly be punished for it, which I would imagine in this case will amount to a reduction in rank and docking of a few months pay, one of the two probably being suspended in lieu of good behavior for a couple months.

Thanks Patty. Finally a reasonable response here in the thread.

[Wezil]

He should have a copy of the Koran shoved up his anus.

[Ben Kenobi]

I say we all mail Ben lots of coins with the sayings on the Prophet on it. I am sure he would love them

Sure you are welcome to. I have no problem with people trying to spread their religion, all I ask is that they treat everyone fairly.

[Ben Kenobi]

No that's quite clearly a falsehood. Christians and Jews have historically fared much better in Islamic countries than Jews and Moslems in Christian countries.

Which is why thousands of Christians were slaughtered after the defeat of the Byzantines, or in Spain? There's never been toleration of Christianity by Islam or any 'flourishing' of Christianity under Islamic nations.

Christians and Jews are accepted in the Qur'an as being "on the right path" (so to speak) but not quite "getting the entire message".

Which is why we are Kaffirs? They are tolerated provided that they pay the Jizeyah. If they don't they are beheaded.

Look at Corsica, the Muslims used to capture Christians and sell them into slavery.

One idea that struck me about this incident is that it could have been "spun" in a positive manner. There is a view amongst many arabic moslems that americans have lost their belief in god. That's the reason why the terrorists refer to us as "the great satan". If the message on the coin was one by Jesus it might have been spun so as to be an act of religious friendship (lets not forget that Jesus is viewed as an Islamic prophet). We might then have saved "face" while we shipped Bens buddy back home.

That's not what they are after. Surely you agree with me here that Shari'a law should have no place in any civilized society today, or perhaps I need to actually go out and say what happens under sharia law?

[Ben Kenobi]

Yeah, because there is no moral difference, none, between "don't hand out religious material" and "role into that town and kill all the women and children".

Glad to see that you equate the two

Sure, however, only one side believes that and thankfully, the Americans are the ones who do. Why are Muslims terrorists perfectly willing to kill civilians? I don't see that they believe there is any difference between the two.

[Imran Siddiqui]

They are tolerated provided that they pay the Jizeyah. If they don't they are beheaded.

Which, of course, is worse than the pogroms of Jews

[Patroklos]

Which is why thousands of Christians were slaughtered after the defeat of the Byzantines, or in Spain? There's never been toleration of Christianity by Islam or any 'flourishing' of Christianity under Islamic nations.

It has been tolerated in a minority of instances, but is surely hasn't flourished.

[MOBIUS]

Can we have a pogrom against Ben?

[GePap]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Which is why thousands of Christians were slaughtered after the defeat of the Byzantines, or in Spain? There's never been toleration of Christianity by Islam or any 'flourishing' of Christianity under Islamic nations.

Ooohh, a BAM! Care to provide any evidence of said Massacres?

Or perhaps when you speak of Byzantium, you speak of the conquest of Constantinople by the Fourth Crusade?

Which is why we are Kaffirs? They are tolerated provided that they pay the Jizeyah. If they don't they are beheaded.

1. This was what was done in Medieval times
2. At least Muslims gave Christians and Jews the option. Christians many times didn't. Perhaps this is why the flourishing Jewish community in Spain ended with the defeat of the Moors and conquest by Christians.

That's not what they are after. Surely you agree with me here that Shari'a law should have no place in any civilized society today, or perhaps I need to actually go out and say what happens under sharia law?

My guess Ben is that your knowledge of Sharia is as weak as your knowledge of history, biology, or many other subjects.

Here is a link to a great article in the NY Times magazine on the subject: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/16/ma...Feldman&st=nyt

WAIT! Why did I even spend this time to argue with Ben???? I must have confused him with someone who can actually understand a point......

[Ben Kenobi]

Which, of course, is worse than the pogroms of Jews

I suppose that's why Jews were only too happy to remain in Soviet Russia.