US crusader sent home for handing out money

[Ben Kenobi]

1) The guy is in the military, and has violated a military regulation. End of story. Or it should be, but...

Isn't that what I said?

2) You want to question the justice of the regulation.

Actually, I was defending the regulation. What I was saying is that it violated a military regulation but it was not a criminal act in the way in which we usually think it to be.

The mission is not to Christianize Iraq; in fact, it's hard to think of anything more counterproductive to the mission than Christian prostletyzing.

The important principle is that there are Christians in Iraq, longer then there have been Christians in America. They need to be free to worship just as Christians are in the free world. This is part of the mission of the soldiers, maybe you don't see that as the case, but I do.

3) You want to defend this guys "rights." That's simple: he's a soldier. He does not have the same rights as a civilian, and is not covered by the same Constitutional protections. That is a long-standing, uncontroversial principle of military service and Constitutional law.

No, I simply think there is room for religious practice in a soldiers mission. What he did here was inappropriate no question, but there are appropriate ways to do so.

[Ben Kenobi]

Well I see I correctly pegged all my opposition here in the thread. Every one of you are opposed to religious expression in public. I guess you all believe that anyone who serves the public, that religious faith is automatically trumped. I'm sorry, many, many of the troops see no conflict with their religion and will expect to be able to practice their faith while in duty.

I really don't at all. Is the Sikh pointing a gun at people and handing out Sikh holy verses?

You've got a Sikh running around with a gun. That's going to ruffle a few feathers whether he's putting out pamphlets or not.

Because, unless it's in a class on religion, than it tacitly supports Christianity in Public schools.

She's a teacher, it's her desk. Far as I'm concerned she ought to be able to put a bible on that desk if she chooses to do so. How is it tacitly supporting Christianity any more then if she were to wear a cross around her neck? They are her beliefs, she has a right to express her faith rather then check it out at the door of the classroom.

It's bad because he distributed, at gunpoint, religious paraphernalia. Its an action that gives the Jihadists ammo in the PR war.

It's irrelevant that it was religious paraphenalia. Don't you get that? Do you know how fast they would be out of there if they were distributing anything without the prior permission and notification of their commanding officer?

That's the point I'm trying to drive home. The only thing you folks are bothered by is that it was a Christian who was openly practicing his faith. That's it. Nothing else matters here.

Nope, sure weren't. There should be no distribution fo religious material, none, to the locals unless they walked up and asked for it.

Just religious material? So it would be ok if they were distributing ammunition at a checkpoint to random passerbys?

The beliefs of the teacher have ****-all to do with the Public school curriculum.

Exactly, which is why she should be able to have a bible on her desk. If her religion is irrelevant to the curriculum, why should it matter at all?

[Ben Kenobi]

Is he imposing his religion on someone when he prays?

You tell me. You are the folks who have a problem with public expression of religious faith.

That would fall under "failure to disobey a lawful order".

Which raises the question, was it a lawful order? In this case yes, but there are cases where unlawful orders are issued, in which case the soldier has the duty to disobey the orders and report them.

You mean when the Chaplain holds voluntary mass to American servicemen?

A whole lot different than handing out Christian paraphernalia at gunpoint.

How so? They aren't forcing people to take it. They aren't required to look at it they, can toss it in the rubbish bin. Your reasoning doesn't work here. The problem isn't that they are forcing their religion on the people, the problem is that they are passing out unauthorized material.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Oh, true I am a convert, but I didn't have the opportunity to grow up in a Catholic family, so I don't think that should be held against me.

I disagree.

I have been confirmed and it took me two years in the RCIA classes to do so.

Two to my 30.

I'm not sure why that qualifies as 'barely' Catholic. It cost me quite a bit to convert and I lost folks I considered friends at the time.

That's because you were protestant and had heathen protestant friends. You can't expect them to be as accepting as Catholics are.

Since you are so catholic, what are your qualifications Da Shi?

You have to be born and raised Catholic. So if you marry a Catholic girl and have Catholic childen, they can be true Catholics. Although there was a case where this one Catholic couple had a protestant baby. The demon child was incinerated during its baptism.

And it's DaShi, Ben Kenobiobi.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
The problem isn't that they are forcing their religion on the people, the problem is that they are passing out unauthorized material.

[Theben]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Well I see I correctly pegged all my opposition here in the thread. Every one of you are opposed to religious expression in public. I guess you all believe that anyone who serves the public, that religious faith is automatically trumped. I'm sorry, many, many of the troops see no conflict with their religion and will expect to be able to practice their faith while in duty.

What's stopping them from practicing their faith? Unless their faith demands that they try to convert every heathen they come across, in which case the guy should be a missionary, not a soldier.
And I correctly perceive religion as being for children, people who need a crutch, and scared people about to die. I can't speak for the others, tho.

You've got a Sikh running around with a gun. That's going to ruffle a few feathers whether he's putting out pamphlets or not.

You're not really that stupid, Ben. Please stop pretending you are.

She's a teacher, it's her desk.

Except it's not her desk.

Far as I'm concerned she ought to be able to put a bible on that desk if she chooses to do so.

Your concern means nothing.

How is it tacitly supporting Christianity any more then if she were to wear a cross around her neck? They are her beliefs, she has a right to express her faith rather then check it out at the door of the classroom.

She can keep it in the desk, for all I care. What's on her person is her personal decison, as long as it meet job standards. What's on her desk should not break the trust of her students, which includes church-state separation.

Do you know how fast they would be out of there if they were distributing anything without the prior permission and notification of their commanding officer?

Isn't that pretty much what he did?

That's the point I'm trying to drive home. The only thing you folks are bothered by is that it was a Christian who was openly practicing his faith. That's it. Nothing else matters here.

What matters is it was some dumbf*ck who selfishly put his misguided ideals ahead of the safety of his comrades and against the orders of the US Army.

Just religious material? So it would be ok if they were distributing ammunition at a checkpoint to random passerbys?

Don't be stupid.

If her religion is irrelevant to the curriculum, why should it matter at all?

It matters to her students?

[Tuberski]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
The problem isn't that they are forcing their religion on the people, the problem is that they are passing out unauthorized material.

It's unauthorized because it's religious. They can hand out all the candy bars, soccer balls shoes, etc. that they want.

They can win hearts and minds, but they can't win souls.

ACK!

[Ben Kenobi]

It's unauthorized because it's religious. They can hand out all the candy bars, soccer balls shoes, etc. that they want.

They can win hearts and minds, but they can't win souls.

No, it matters that it's unauthorized. I already gave an example with nuts. Say you give a chocolate bar with nuts to someone with an allergy. Oh, wow, you've just killed a kid. Good for you.

They are only allowed to give out authorised stuff, which they go through before they pass it out.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


No, it matters that it's unauthorized.

And what was again the reason for this?

[Theben]

Maybe you should have read the whole thing...

A US marine in Iraq has been removed from duty following claims that he handed out coins inscribed with biblical verses in Arabic.

Residents in Falluja had complained that the coins were being distributed at a checkpoint, the US military said.

US troops are forbidden from proselytising any religion.

The case comes a week after US President George Bush made a personal apology over a US soldier in Iraq shot holes into a version of the Koran.

In the Falluja incident, a military statement said a service member had been discharged "amid concerns from Falluja's citizens regarding reports of inappropriate conduct".

A report from McClatchy News Service carried a photo of a silver coin it said had been distributed in the Iraqi city.

Written in Arabic script on one side of the coin were the words: "Where will you spend eternity?"

On the other side, the news service said there was a Bible verse referring to Jesus: "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:16."

Koran shooting

Military spokesman Mike Isho told McClatchy that marines at the western gate in Falluja had been searched following a report about the coins.

One man found with the coins was reassigned and would no longer be working in the central Anbar province, he said.

The military said coalition forces were prohibited from "proselytising any religion, faith or practices, and our troops are trained on those guidelines before they deploy".

It is still investigating the incident and says "appropriate action will be taken" if claims about the coins are substantiated.

Earlier this month, a soldier was sent home from Iraq after a Koran was found riddled with bullets in a shooting range near Baghdad.

The incident triggered a violent protest by more than 1,000 people in Afghanistan in which three people died.

But I guess shooting the Koran is okay since it's an example of "religious expression in public", right?

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Theben
Maybe you should have read the whole thing...



But I guess shooting the Koran is okay since it's an example of "religious expression in public", right?

Of course it's not okay He was unauthorizedly damaging stuff!

[Ben Kenobi]

What's stopping them from practicing their faith? Unless their faith demands that they try to convert every heathen they come across, in which case the guy should be a missionary, not a soldier.

Gee, Christians see their faith as an essential part of who they are, be they missionaries, or soldiers, or however. It helps them do their jobs, it gives them principles that apply to every aspect of their lives.

A principle that is contrary to this way of living is harmful to both the practicing soldier, and to everyone he works around. They should be free to practice their faith in their everyday life, and not feel stifled.

I understand what was going on here, and I've said time and time again, that I agree with them sanctioning him, but not because it was religious material. It was inappropriate for them, and how he did so. I do think there are appropriate outlets.

Now, if we go as folks have posted here and say that the only problem was that the material was religious, that is wrong. I'm sorry. He was not forcing his religion on them anymore then the guy handing pamphlets out on the street does the same.

Was it inappropriate? Yes. Would it escalate tensions? Yes, it would. I agree that it was wrong to put out there, but he's not forcing his religion on them at all.

And I correctly perceive religion as being for children, people who need a crutch, and scared people about to die. I can't speak for the others, tho.

Why do you feel that way? I'm curious. Why is religion for children?

I'm being honest here. I've heard that opinion many, many times.

She can keep it in the desk, for all I care. What's on her person is her personal decison, as long as it meet job standards. What's on her desk should not break the trust of her students, which includes church-state separation.

Let me ask you something. Go in the way back machine. How do you think that students were taught how to read way back in the day? They used the McGuffey readers. They had actual real life bible quotes.

Now I ask you, how is that a violation of the separation of the church and state? It's never ever been interpreted to mean that the school cannot use Christian principles in teaching children to be more aware of their own culture.

Separation of church and state only means that there could not be an established church of the USA which was revolutionary for the time, since the UK had their Anglican church.

Isn't that pretty much what he did?

That's what I'm trying to say here.

What matters is it was some dumbf*ck who selfishly put his misguided ideals ahead of the safety of his comrades and against the orders of the US Army.

Dumb**** maybe. Misguided? I dunno bout that. I think he was motived with the proper concerns, but I doubt an atheist would care to understand.

Doesn't make him a bad soldier in any way shape or form.

Don't be stupid.

Oh, so the issue is authorisation now eh? Thanks.

It matters to her students?

Let me put it this way, it's an essential part of who she is. She shouldn't have to check her religion at the door of the school, any more then any of her students should.

[Ben Kenobi]

But I guess shooting the Koran is okay since it's an example of "religious expression in public", right?

Let me ask you this.

Do you believe the Muslims would be so generous in return, that the most offensive thing they could do in your country is to shoot up a bible?

I saw this already, my position was the same. He should be reprimanded for cultural insensitivity. It's not a criminal act though, unless of course our soldiers are now governed by sharia law.

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Gee, Christians see their faith as an essential part of who they are, be they missionaries, or soldiers, or however. It helps them do their jobs, it gives them principles that apply to every aspect of their lives.

A principle that is contrary to this way of living is harmful to both the practicing soldier, and to everyone he works around. They should be free to practice their faith in their everyday life, and not feel stifled.

Proselytizing
Thou shalt not kill

[Ben Kenobi]

I disagree.

Why? You disagree with the catechism?

Two to my 30.

Congrats.

That's because you were protestant and had heathen protestant friends. You can't expect them to be as accepting as Catholics are.

Just like you are being so 'accepting' to me now?

You have to be born and raised Catholic.

Not according to the Catechism.

Baptism, the Eucharist, and the sacrament of Confirmation together constitute the "sacraments of Christian initiation," whose unity must be safeguarded. It must be explained to the faithful that the reception of the sacrament of Confirmation is necessary for the completion of baptismal grace.

For "by the sacrament of Confirmation, [the baptized] are more perfectly bound to the Church and are enriched with a special strength of the Holy Spirit. Hence they are, as true witnesses of Christ, more strictly obliged to spread and defend the faith by word and deed."

Every baptized person not yet confirmed can and should receive the sacrament of Confirmation.

Since Baptism, Confirmation, and Eucharist form a unity, it follows that "the faithful are obliged to receive this sacrament at the appropriate time," for without Confirmation and Eucharist, Baptism is certainly valid and efficacious, but Christian initiation remains incomplete.

Although Confirmation is sometimes called the "sacrament of Christian maturity," we must not confuse adult faith with the adult age of natural growth, nor forget that the baptismal grace is a grace of free, unmerited election and does not need "ratification" to become effective. St. Thomas reminds us of this:
Age of body does not determine age of soul. Even in childhood man can attain spiritual maturity: as the book of Wisdom says: "For old age is not honored for length of time, or measured by number of years. "Many children, through the strength of the Holy Spirit they have received, have bravely fought for Christ even to the shedding of their blood.

1310 To receive Confirmation one must be in a state of grace. One should receive the sacrament of Penance in order to be cleansed for the gift of the Holy Spirit. More intense prayer should prepare one to receive the strength and graces of the Holy Spirit with docility and readiness to act.[126]

And again in BAPTISM:

Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."] "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."[81]

So those who have been baptised outside the Catholic church, as I was, and then confirmed are considered to be full members of the Catholic church.