US crusader sent home for handing out money

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Tuberski,

Why would it hurt the image of the military? If Iraq had religious freedom, why would they care?

Ben, you dimwit, the whole concept of religious freedom is only germane if we're talking about a functioning civil society. And if Iraq were a funtioning civil society, then we wouldn't be occupying the place with our f*cking military. So this has f*ck-all to do with the nature of religion in some mythical Iraqi society that has yet to emerge from the rubble, and everything to do with what practices the military sees as detrimental to its mission. Prostletyzing is one such practice.

Or is it your position that you now know better that military commanders on the ground what is and isn't detrimental to the mission?

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


I said religious minorities, not just Christians. You think I might have said that for a reason?

Yes, it plays a role, but it's not so simple as "bigotted Christian homeboy putting out the white man's burden on Iraq."

Religious sensibilities are an issue, the reason being that shari'a doesn't permit religious freedoms anywhere, including Iraq. They don't just have a problem with handouts or these coins, but they have a problem with Christianity period.

Ahh, so the prob is not what is reported but what you just declare to be the prob. Great. I declare the prob is donuts period.

Where is your evidence that complaining about the practice of handing out those coins was done with the intent not to "permit religious freedoms anywhere" and that those who did it "have a problem with Christianity"? Do you know the background of those who complained and can fill us in how they did it because of the reasons you give? Ànd where can I get similar mind-reading capabilities?

And where did they get these rules from? The British. They have been dealing with these problems for much longer, particularly in Iraq. The problem does not originate with the army, but with the conflict between sharia law and the west. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the act, other then that it offends people who have religious sensibilities that don't permit the expression of religions other then their own.

....or that the military has rules against it, or that it would be counter-productive in the special situation in Iraq, or that there is the general idea of seperation state/religion or or or. Maybe you don't agree with these, but please stop telling us that those other aspects aren't there.

There is always going to be tension, no matter what. The reason this was a problem is that it is unnecessary, to accomplish the main goals and still raises tensions, not because the act in itself was wrong.

The act was wrong for several reasons, and that is why the military reacted the way it did.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Koyaanisqatsi, sharia doesn't play well with others. You might not like that but it's a fact.

Regardless of how I agree or dissagre with the rest Ben has been saying, I must admit he hit the nail on the head here.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

Why would it hurt the image of the military? If Iraq had religious freedom, why would they care?

The truth is they don't have religius freedom, and I'm afriad they never will.

[Kuciwalker]

Please, for the love of GOD. STOP FEEDING HIM. YOU ARE DRIVING ME INSANE.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi


I understand that, but that's not exactly a unique characteristic. Or would this work better if, say, Russian soldiers invaded The Vatican and started trying to convert them?

To what? Orthodoxy? You do realise these two very similar variants of Christianity have more or less made a truce right? Plus, Russia isn't the most religius place.


Plus you are cherry pciking here. The Vatican is a tiny theocratic state with a few hundred people, people who are clergymen. People who are citizens of the country precsiley becasue they have risen up the ranks of such a society.


There is no predominantley Christian country on Earth today that would make as big a fuss about people of its faith being coverted to Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Hindusim, ect. Some countries don't even have a problem with frikking crazy Scientology!


Show me a Muslim country that dosen't make as big a fuss about Chrisitan, Buddhist, Hindu or any kind of attempt to encourage people to convert from Islam.

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Please, for the love of GOD. STOP FEEDING HIM. YOU ARE DRIVING ME INSANE.

QFT.

What a ridiculous argument.

[Theben]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Please, for the love of GOD. STOP FEEDING HIM. YOU ARE DRIVING ME INSANE.

I thought it was okay as long as we didn't feed him after midnight.

[BeBMan]

After midnight is before midnight

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Originally posted by Heraclitus
To what? Orthodoxy? You do realise these two very similar variants of Christianity have more or less made a truce right?

Which I'm sure would last a long time once one side invades the other and starts proselytizing. Which was the point...Ben was talking about winning hearts and minds being the most important thing. Invading troops trying to convert their 'hosts', no matter what religions are involved, is not going to make people happy. It's ridiculous to say that Islam is any different from any other religion in that regard, no matter what the rules are in peacetime, and specifically blaming Sharia is just an attempt to demonize it. Whether or not it deserves demonizing is beside the point, it's intellectually dishonest in this case.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


So the good soldier always obeys no matter what?

Yeah, because there is no moral difference, none, between "don't hand out religious material" and "role into that town and kill all the women and children".

Glad to see that you equate the two.

[GePap]

I say we all mail Ben lots of coins with the sayings on the Prophet on it. I am sure he would love them

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Koyaanisqatsi, sharia doesn't play well with others. You might not like that but it's a fact.

No that's quite clearly a falsehood. Christians and Jews have historically fared much better in Islamic countries than Jews and Moslems in Christian countries. Christians and Jews are accepted in the Qur'an as being "on the right path" (so to speak) but not quite "getting the entire message".

One idea that struck me about this incident is that it could have been "spun" in a positive manner. There is a view amongst many arabic moslems that americans have lost their belief in god. That's the reason why the terrorists refer to us as "the great satan". If the message on the coin was one by Jesus it might have been spun so as to be an act of religious friendship (lets not forget that Jesus is viewed as an Islamic prophet). We might then have saved "face" while we shipped Bens buddy back home.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by SpencerH

i have no idea what happened here

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Originally posted by GePap
I say we all mail Ben lots of coins with the sayings on the Prophet on it. I am sure he would love them

I would love them too, can I get some