Don't Ask, Don't Tell (and its depiction last night in Grey's Anatomy)

[Apocalypse]

Trust me, people have been complaining about those barracks for years.

[snoopy369]

How long have you been in the military again??

[Patroklos]

http://www.myspace.com/freddywelborn - his Myspace.

And that proves what? The point was that he could have been from any denomination.

Of course this is all irrelevant because there is absolutely nothing to coroborate the story anyway. Can we use this level of "evidence" for anything else?

I listed army and air force being effected by this, not the navy so much.

You are not in the Air Force. Again, you have provided nothing but a anecdote and a book advertisement, that doesn't fly.

Or you could head to a bookstore and browse for a bit.

I could, or you could link to readily available evidence.

None, except how you can't really refuse when they decide to sit down next to you and talk.

I lived with a Lutheran one for a month, and it was quite clear we would not talk about religion in my stateroom (and he had a silver leaf to my single silver bar at the time).

You descibe chaplians like they are Borg assimilating people. You know as well as I do it is nothing like that.

Actually being a rater and senior rater for seven people, soon to be 10 people.

But what is YOUR rank? The point is, you have not been subject to these boards you speak of. When rating your soldiers, where did you fill in their religious denomination? Exactly. You ASSUME the medical/personel portions of their records go to the boards, which is false. If you google a bit you can find out exactly what the boards look at.

Except there are actually boards for E-4s in the army. You have to go to the board before you make corporal in the army.

Don't quibble. Of course you go to a command board, they have to assign your ratings to all those categories on those EVALS somehow, you know that isn't what we are talking about.

For E-6 and below your test scores, unit evals, and some other things (specific awards, exta-military schooling) are all assigned points and that total number dictates if you are promoted or not. I hope you don't actually think that the army has a group of senior brass meticulous combing the records of 200K+ E-4 aspirants every year searching for your religious pedigree (and whats more ignoring everything else).

You have yet to link a single aspect of the promotion process to religion.

Also I could not open that document.

It opens in word, it is the basic Army EVAL, which you know full well does not list religious denomination (or sex, or race).

I am talking more about biases based on catering to married Soldiers, such as why on post housing is better than the barracks.

As I thought.

Married people just tend to stay in longer because the spouse is the deciding factor.

So?

They also get a picture of you in uniform (green one with lots of ribbons) if race wasn't clear enough on the form.

It is actually there to see if you are a complet slob. I have my issues with it, but it really isn't that unreasonable if you are not a conspiracy theorist.

Should we censor names as well, lest the board members divine your gender or race that way?

[Asher]

You are such an unapologetic brownnoser. The exact kind of people the military wants, as luck would have it.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by Asher
Why not let the gay men shower with the women.

No way! Gay guys tend to have great bodies! After oggling them, straight women would never settle for my blubbery carcass.

[Ben Kenobi]

The military is about letting physically and mentally capable men and women serve their country. If you can't hear, you can't serve. If you can't see, you can't serve. If you are grossly overweight, you can't serve. If you are mentally retarded, you can't serve.

But why are you including "if you let anyone know you have a boyfriend back home, you can't serve" in this group?

Why is one any less arbitrary then the others? Again, I am physically and mentally capable of serving, just not in all capacities, due to something over which I have no control.

At least with you, how would they find out unless you told them? I really don't see the issue.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Why is one any less arbitrary then the others? Again, I am physically and mentally capable of serving, just not in all capacities, due to something over which I have no control.

No, you are not capable of serving physically if you are hearing impaired. What if you miss the command to cease fire?

At least with you, how would they find out unless you told them? I really don't see the issue.

Of course you don't. Why wouldn't I tell them?

How can I make sure my partner gets all the same rights as other soldier's partners?
How can I make sure that when my partner is undergoing life-threatening surgery, I can avoid immediate deployment to be there with him?

This is more than sex, Ben, it's life. I've got a long-term partner that deserves all of the same benefits as your hypothetical long-term partner, period.

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Why is one any less arbitrary then the others? Again, I am physically and mentally capable of serving, just not in all capacities, due to something over which I have no control.

At least with you, how would they find out unless you told them? I really don't see the issue.

Because the US Government has classified sexual preference as a protected class (discrimination may not be permitted), while physical disability is permitted, so long as the physical disability causes a lack of ability to perform the task.

Hearing disability is determined as adequate for the US Military, because you are unable to perform in combat situations, which all US Military personnel must be able to perform in (whether or not they are likely to do so). Or at least I'd guess as to that, perhaps patrokolos or apoc can confirm

[Apocalypse]

Originally posted by snoopy369
How long have you been in the military again??

Over three years.

Originally posted by Patroklos
And that proves what? The point was that he could have been from any denomination.

He is evangelical.

Originally posted by Patroklos
Of course this is all irrelevant because there is absolutely nothing to coroborate the story anyway. Can we use this level of "evidence" for anything else?

You are not in the Air Force. Again, you have provided nothing but a anecdote and a book advertisement, that doesn't fly.

I could, or you could link to readily available evidence.

What type of evidence are you looking for exactly?

That book is just an example. Religious issues aren't things you find unbiased stories on really. If you don't want to browse through the book to get some example, then whatever.

Originally posted by Patroklos
I lived with a Lutheran one for a month, and it was quite clear we would not talk about religion in my stateroom (and he had a silver leaf to my single silver bar at the time).

You descibe chaplians like they are Borg assimilating people. You know as well as I do it is nothing like that.

Well good for you. And I never said they were assimilating people.

Originally posted by Patroklos But what is YOUR rank? The point is, you have not been subject to these boards you speak of. When rating your soldiers, where did you fill in their religious denomination? Exactly. You ASSUME the medical/personel portions of their records go to the boards, which is false. If you google a bit you can find out exactly what the boards look at.

I have had to spend Friday evenings listening to CSMs talk about boards. You are the one that doesn't seem to realize what actually goes to the board. Examples of going back to the unit were given. For example they look at a picture and see a fat guy. They look at the original personnel file and see he is x tall and weighs x. Later on he gets taller. They look at pts tests and see if he just missed them for whatever reason or was on profile.

Originally posted by Patroklos Don't quibble. Of course you go to a command board, they have to assign your ratings to all those categories on those EVALS somehow, you know that isn't what we are talking about.

For E-6 and below your test scores, unit evals, and some other things (specific awards, exta-military schooling) are all assigned points and that total number dictates if you are promoted or not. I hope you don't actually think that the army has a group of senior brass meticulous combing the records of 200K+ E-4 aspirants every year searching for your religious pedigree (and whats more ignoring everything else).

No, they actually have to pass those boards. You have to have enough points AND pass the board. But whatever.

Originally posted by Patroklos It opens in word, it is the basic Army EVAL, which you know full well does not list religious denomination (or sex, or race).

I opened it now, and that isn't all they look at.

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by Apocalypse

Over three years.

Ahh, thanks. I had been under the impression it was less. Were you recently made an officer or something, or am I just confusing you with someone entirely???

[Apocalypse]

Originally posted by snoopy369
Hearing disability is determined as adequate for the US Military, because you are unable to perform in combat situations, which all US Military personnel must be able to perform in (whether or not they are likely to do so). Or at least I'd guess as to that, perhaps patrokolos or apoc can confirm

There are different classes of hearing.

Class 1 or 2: Soldier is deployable.

Class 3A: Complete Audiological Evaluation not complete (DA Form 4700 overwrite or civilian equivalent)

Class 3B: Profile (DA Form 3349) not complete

Class 3C: MMRB not complete

Class 3D: Does not meet standards with hearing aid

Class 3E: Soldier's latest audiogram results is >H3 and no hearing aid has been issued

Class 4A: Soldier requires a hearing examiniation. Date since last test is greater than 12 months and current Hearing Class is not 3A-B.

Class 4B: Soldier requires a hearing examination. Soldier had STS on previous exam and is awaiting follow up test.

People are actually still able to do combat things if hearing aids work.

[Ben Kenobi]

Of course you don't. Why wouldn't I tell them?

Do they ask you? I'm not in the habit of disclosing information that is really not the business of the military.

How can I make sure my partner gets all the same rights as other soldier's partners?

Well I didn't realise that the primary purpose of the military was to provide benefits. If you are in it for the benefits, I should think you wouldn't make a proper recruit.

How can I make sure that when my partner is undergoing life-threatening surgery, I can avoid immediate deployment to be there with him?

Right. Well you have a decision then. Which would be more important. You can't get immediate deployment, that is one of the risks of the job. What if you are in the middle of the warzone, you might not even be informed until after the fact.

This is more than sex, Ben, it's life. I've got a long-term partner that deserves all of the same benefits as your hypothetical long-term partner, period.

You are asking for preferential treatment. A 'long term partner' what does that mean? What's to stop anyone from declaring someone that they care about to be a 'long term partner?'

How fair is it to a single guy who would rather have the same benefits go to a parent that he cares for? I mean honestly. Why shouldn't I be able to name my best friend the same way?

[Apocalypse]

Originally posted by snoopy369


Ahh, thanks. I had been under the impression it was less. Were you recently made an officer or something, or am I just confusing you with someone entirely???

Recent as in a year ago.

[Ben Kenobi]

No, you are not capable of serving physically if you are hearing impaired. What if you miss the command to cease fire?

And neither are you Asher. It's not about the one person asking the army to accommodate him, but it's about that person meeting the requirements of the army.

There are many, many jobs that I could do, but because of their regulations I cannot perform them. Why should that be? Why should the army discriminate against someone for something they cannot control?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Do they ask you? I'm not in the habit of disclosing information that is really not the business of the military.

Are you intentionally trying to enrage me by being obtuse?

Do you really think the military has no idea if a man is married or has a common-law partner? You're right in that they don't know if you have a male partner, but this is actually the problem.

Well I didn't realise that the primary purpose of the military was to provide benefits. If you are in it for the benefits, I should think you wouldn't make a proper recruit.

Don't be a dickwad.

If I get killed in the line of duty, serving my country, my partner deserves every benefit that other partners do. I did not say people joined the military for benefits (though I'm sure some do), but this is a matter of fairness. If I put my life on the line so you can get your rocks off preaching about Jesus, I'd expect my partner to be taken care of after I'm killed in the line of duty.

Right. Well you have a decision then. Which would be more important. You can't get immediate deployment, that is one of the risks of the job. What if you are in the middle of the warzone, you might not even be informed until after the fact.

Completely stupid, irrelevant point. This has already been discussed in this very thread. If you have the capacity to read, please do so.

You are asking for preferential treatment. A 'long term partner' what does that mean? What's to stop anyone from declaring someone that they care about to be a 'long term partner?'

I am asking for equal treatment. I am asking to legally declare my long-term partner (civil union, marriage, whatever). I am asking for my long-term partner to get the same respect as a human being as your hypothetical long-term partner would get.

Don't you dare insult me one more time by claiming this is requesting preferential treatment. No one here is stupid enough to believe this is asking for preferential treatment but you.