Don't Ask, Don't Tell (and its depiction last night in Grey's Anatomy)

[Asher]

Best argument against Don't ask Don't tell, actually...

[Lul Thyme]

Originally posted by Asher


Yes, but that's just another factor in it. The fact that one of the soldiers had to go AWOL to be with his dying partner kind of illustrates the nastiness of Don't Ask Don't Tell, no?

I didn't know what AWOL meant, I had to look it up.
If he had a female partner (but not official, say a girlfriend) in a similar situation, would he have been able to go see her without going AWOL?

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by MrFun
I completely agree with you on this, Asher. Dishonorable discharges and discrimination against gays and lesbians has actually INCREASED due to Clinton's "don't ask, don't tell" compromise with a Republican-dominated Congress.

People kicked out under DADT don't get dishnorable discharges.

In fatc, linguists who have gotten kicked out under DADT have found themselves recalled anyway, something that would have been impossible under a BCD.

[Verto]

Sexual orientation shouldn't be any more of a factor than race, IMO (kudos to Truman, btw).

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Verto
Sexual orientation shouldn't be any more of a factor than race, IMO (kudos to Truman, btw).

Oh, I totally agree. If for no other reason that it prevents jackasses using DADT to get training/education from the DoD and then get out.

[snoopy369]

I don't entirely understand the aggression against don't ask, don't tell itself.

I understand (and agree with) wanting to admit gays openly into the military. However, you have three options:
1. Gays openly in military
2. Gays in military as long as they don't say they're gay
3. No gays in military

Sure, you choose 1 first.

Which do you choose second?

[Asher]

Why should you have to choose second.

People who aim for second place will never get first place.

[snoopy369]

What i'm saying is, why do you complain about DADT instead of complaining that gays aren't allowed into the military openly?

[Tuberski]

Originally posted by Asher
Why should you have to choose second.

People who aim for second place will never get first place.

Unless first place fails to live up to the responsibilites of being number 1. Like posing in Playboy..........


ACK!

[Asher]

Originally posted by snoopy369
What i'm saying is, why do you complain about DADT instead of complaining that gays aren't allowed into the military openly?

Isn't it obvious that the implication of abolishing don't ask don't tell, when coming from a gay man, is to allow gay people to serve openly?

I hate don't ask don't tell because it forbids gays from serving openly. That's why I don't like it.

I'm not sure why I need to connect these dots for you.

[snoopy369]

I guess because I think DADT is a step in the right direction - it's better than no service, right? You can't expect psycho religious right folks to suddenly go from "eww gays are evil let's stone them" to "Let's give them guns and bathe with them" in one step Hence, DADT was not a bad thing, it was a step that allowed gays to serve, if not openly; then at some (hopefully soon) point, we get over this whole thing and drop DADT.

It just sounds to me when people complain about DADT that they'd rather go back to the pre-DADT times... which seems weird.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by snoopy369
I guess because I think DADT is a step in the right direction - it's better than no service, right? You can't expect psycho religious right folks to suddenly go from "eww gays are evil let's stone them" to "Let's give them guns and bathe with them" in one step Hence, DADT was not a bad thing, it was a step that allowed gays to serve, if not openly; then at some (hopefully soon) point, we get over this whole thing and drop DADT.

It just sounds to me when people complain about DADT that they'd rather go back to the pre-DADT times... which seems weird.

The problem is that there's no difference between what DADT and pre-DADT, because the military continues to "ask" in spite of the policy against it and interprets "tell" to include being told by a third party, which has allowed homophobic soldiers to out their comrades. DADT would be a stupid an unjust policy even if it worked as intended, but it doesn't even do that.

"Luckily" for gays and lesbians, the military is stretched to its limits, which means fewer of them are being discharged these days They may be anathema to the military, but times are tough; how nice that they can now find themselves in the same category as felons and the mentally disabled.

[Hauptman]

When a woman joins the army, does she bunk and shower with the men? No.

So in an environment where you share (read as 'give up') personal space, having somebody there with you, who might be looking a little too closely will be very distressing to a lot of people. Remeber that a lot of military personel are recruited from small rural towns and may have NEVER been exposed to homosexuality.
So in order to avoid the 'gay bashing' you are expected to hide it, or not join up.

Can't say I have anything against dis-allowing gays from joining...


And just to note... I'm gettin dressed to go to a gay bar right now... (no I'm not gay, but quite a few friends are. TIC)

[Asher]

Why not let the gay men shower with the women.

Honestly, people need to get themselves off their hangups with nudity in nonsexual situations. Whatever. Reminds me of the guys at the gym that jumps around like idiots stealthily trying to change or wait 20 minutes in line for a private shower stall when there's 40 free shower heads in the communal showers available. They need to get over themselves.

Maybe the US is the only country with ignorant hicks in the military, 'cause it's not a problem in countries that permit gays to serve openly.

[Ben Kenobi]

So in an environment where you share (read as 'give up') personal space, having somebody there with you, who might be looking a little too closely will be very distressing to a lot of people. Remeber that a lot of military personel are recruited from small rural towns and may have NEVER been exposed to homosexuality.

It's basic common sense here. There is a line between being colourblind, and between making it an issue for everyone else.

I don't see any reason why they should expect preferential treatment from the military, it should be irrelevant to the performance of their duty.

Honestly, people need to get themselves off their hangups with nudity in nonsexual situations. Whatever. Reminds me of the guys at the gym that jumps around like idiots stealthily trying to change or wait 20 minutes in line for a private shower stall when there's 40 free shower heads in the communal showers available. They need to get over themselves.

So women should shower with the men? Not going to happen. You might feel these hangups are 'outmoded', but they are a concern. Asher, do you believe that making it an issue will improve job performance?

I can't serve in the military due to disability. That isn't discrimination, it is a fact that there are certain expectations that are required of all military recruits that are considered essential to the safety of everyone else there. If what you are looking for is self-affirmation, then the military is the wrong place for you.