And some of you were worried about the new LONDON mayor...

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by David Floyd
Eh, from what I understand, gypsies aren't really interested in jobs. Am I wrong?

Yes.

Quite a few Gypsies make a living through temp work, and smallscale retail. Entertainment is also a fairly commonplace breadmaker among Gypsies.

[David Floyd]

Fair enough. My impression was that the majority of them were free-loaders who lived in trailer parks and generally conned and robbed their way through life.

[Spiffor]

This impression is largely shared by people who live near them.

There might be truth to that impression, but I'd say the truth is mixed with a traditional fantasizing about them, very akin to how traditional Europe saw the Jews.

Besides that, I can't say anything interesting about them. My experiences with them, and the testimonies I gathered are insufficient for me to have a serious knowledge about Gypsies.

[Ben Kenobi]

He [Alemanno] promised to put more police on the streets of the city and to expel thousands of Roma travellers living in illegal settlements around the city.

That's not what he said.

That is what they say he said, but that is their inference. Same as you. All Alemanno says is that he plans to expel 20,000 illegal immigrants. He never makes one reference to the gypsies at all.

Now, I'm not saying Alemanno is only attacking the Gypsies. When he says he wants to expel 20,000 immigrants, it's pretty obvious he's referring to all stripes of immigrants he doesn't like.

Which was my impression, I didn't get the sense that he was targetting only gypsies, and which was why he worded that the way he did.

It's also obvious he's talking about Gypsies, since they are a common scapegoat in Italy today.

Far from the only ones.

When he chose the specific case of Giovanna Reggiani's rape & murder to push his political point, the culprit, a "Romanian immigrant who lived in such a [abusive nomad] camp" obviously had nothing to do with Gypsies... (note: the previous sentence is sarcasm)

Again, they aren't the only illegal immigrants in Italy. I don't get the sense that only Roma will be deported.

No. A more apt comparison would be "If Le Pen talked about a youth committing a crime in Paris, he'd mean only a Black or an Arab". I wouldn't call you a racist, but someone who knows some basic facts about French politics.

I'm not talking Le Pen. I'm talking about the BBC. Anytime we hear of "youths" rioting.

[C0ckney]

my experiences with gypsies have led me to conclude that they're not all worthless oxygen thieves, it's just the 95% who give the rest a bad name.

[David Floyd]

So, in fact, spending money on educational programs and job opportunities for gypsies is a waste, at least 95% of the time.

That's what I was getting at, and that's my point. The usual social-liberal policies break down in situations like this - when a group of people is intent on committing crimes, and probably doesn't even see much wrong with what they are doing, then a heavy police crackdown is probably the only way to go.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
I don't get the sense that only Roma will be deported.

Me neither.

However, I get the sense that the policy of razing camps (which is only one part of Alemanno's platform) will target the Roma almost exclusively, simply because they're the only nomadic culture in Western Europe (that I'm aware of, at least). The rest of illegal migration in Italy mostly comes from the Balkan (Albania especialle) and from Africa, and I've yet to see such immigrants adopting a nomad lifestyle.

This policy will be terrible for the camps' inhabitants, but it will also be damaging for the citizens of Rome.

[Arrian]

I missed Spiffor.

-Arrian

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Spiffor
- If I was a right-wing mayor, I'd make CCTV more prevalent. With the extra proof, punishment for serial pickpockets will be higher, and they'll be more easy to arrest (as the police won't need to see them doing the stealing to arrest them)

As a commie, shouldn't you support more CCTV too? It's the closest you're going to get to telescreens.

[Ben Kenobi]

- I'd pour some money into informing tourists about safety, in such a way that it's efficient. For example, giving actual efficient tips, showing crime stats, explaing the thieves' main modus operandi, giving adresses of shops that sell safety gear.

That sounds sensible. However as you said, it would lower confidence in travellers going to Rome. Why would a traveller go to Rome when he could go elsewhere without having to worry about the pickpockets?

It behooves Italy to find some way of reducing the number of incidents so that the travellers themselves feel safer.

I'd pour some money into making the city less puzzling for a foreigner. When you don't know how the city works, it's quite strenuous to find your way. This leads to always look at the map, ask for help, or be on the lookout for the strett's name. During that time, tourists are naturally more vulnerable to pickpocketing.

I would think that's pretty much the same wherever you go. Take the time to familiarise yourself with the area, buy a map, etc.

I'd think about controlling access to the most crowded parts of the city (I'm thinking of the fontana di trevi for example), so that there's always a reasonable amount of people. Not only can it help against crime (by giving the cops enough room to actually catch a pickpocket if they see one), it's also a good thing for other forms of safety.

Yes, and it also gives travellers more confidence and security. I think they should step up the policing they already have, not just maintain what they have, and this gets back to the crackdown.

I'd strongly reinforce public transportation, in order to alleviate overcrowding

Can't say I agree. Public transit reinforces overcrowding because you are cramming more people into a smaller area, and giving the pickpockets more places to work.

A mass transit, if it's under control, pwns pedestrianness when it comes to safety.

Depends on how it is implemented. I can certainly see situations where transit would be even less safe.

I'd make a strong campaign to attract tourists in places outside the city centre. Rome is overcrowded with tourists at some places, and has absolutely none at some others. If the city-centre becomes less overcrowded as the tourists are more spread out, the police will be able to work more efficiently.

This is crowd management, more then anything else. If you have adequate policing of the high traffic areas you could limit the number of visiters, which other places do. If the city of Rome is too congested then this may be what they have to do.

- I'd work with immigrant communities, especially the Gypsies, so that they can be better integrated and find better job opportunities. Such a work has to be done with caution, as a "white man's burden" approach can only fail, as well as an approach that's not assertive enough. In any case, it's always a bad thing to have a large part of the population completely alienated.

Completely disagree here. Integration demands that they respect the rules of Italy. If they don't like how Italy governs themselves then they can leave. They ought to immigrate properly. If they can immigrate illegally, then they should be just as easy to deport back to their home country.

I agree with your motivations, but I think many immigrants have taken advantage of Italy, and the result is the situation today. Italy needs to say, this is unacceptable behaviour. Immigrants of any stripe have a higher standard of behaviour because they are guests in Italy. Guests should behave that way and be respectful.

I think integration is a noble goal, but you need to make it have consequences for the 10 percent that cause 90 percent of your problems. If Italy were to deport those 10 percent, then they would show to the other 90 that they won't tolerate criminal behaviour.

- If I was a right-wing mayor, I'd make CCTV more prevalent. With the extra proof, punishment for serial pickpockets will be higher, and they'll be more easy to arrest (as the police won't need to see them doing the stealing to arrest them)

Surveillance has it's uses and it's limitations. Better to have the cops on the ground, rather then relying on the cameras.

I don't think razing the Gypsy camps will be any useful. To the contrary. It is pretty clear the Gypsies will stay in the vicinity of Rome (you may want to remember that Romania is now in the EU, which makes expulsions there much more difficult). And it's pretty clear that, by leaving in even more fragile conditions, they'll be more likely to turn to crime.

Status quo isn't working. I can see deportations of only those immigrants with a criminal record as being a positive step. It shouldn't be about getting rid of all of them, but only the ones who are causing trouble. This is why the headlines are very misleading and provocative. I can hardly believe the number of Roma total in Rome would number only 20k.

[Arrian]

...deport back to their home country...

Isn't part of the problem here that Roma/Gypsies have no home country?

Shall they be sent back to India?

-Arrian

[Sandman]

IIRC, Italy has the highest police/population ratio in Western Europe. It might be worth doing a bit of rationalising and redeploying.

[Dinner]

I did notice that a lot of the Roma in Kosovo were settled. I believe the Yugoslavian government required (even forced) Roma to settle in houses and that most of these villages were exclusively Roma and were among the poorest in Kosovo.

[Ben Kenobi]

Isn't part of the problem here that Roma/Gypsies have no home country?

Shall they be sent back to India?

They came to Italy from somewhere. If they were born in Rumania, they should get sent there.

[Kuciwalker]

Did you miss the bit about Romania being part of the EU now?