Women - Pretentious or Prudish?

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Cartimandua


I think Aeson has it all wrapped up here. I would have to agree 100% with what he said. Having been married long enough to know what's important in a relationship, I will testify that it's not how often or how mind blowing the sex is that counts. What really matters is that you love each other, take care of each other, and do whatever you can to make each other happy. Because when real life hits in the form of bills, children, stress, work, emergencies, etc, it takes more than a great sex life to make everything work out in the end.

Yes of course. I was arguing the merits of premarital sex wrt sexual compatibility in a vacuum, assuming that there were no other significant issues. If you want to argue that other issues take precedence over sex, by all means, I won't likely disagree, but that wasn't really the point of my comments, at least.

My point was merely that a sexually compatible couple is more likely to experience longevity than a non-sexually compatible couple, and that you are more likely to be compatible if you experience each other before entering matrimony. Obviously there is more to a marriage and its difficulties than sex, but that wasn't really the thrust (no pun intended) of this thread, in my understanding, I could be wrong.

[Jon Miller]

I think that couples that place an emphasis on sexual compatibility are less likely to experience longevity in their relationship than couples that don't place an emphasis on sexual compatibility.

JM

[Monk]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
I think that couples that place an emphasis on sexual compatibility are less likely to experience longevity in their relationship than couples that don't place an emphasis on sexual compatibility.

That's probably true since there's no need for any couple to place any emphasis on that if they do indeed get along quite nicely in that department, not unlike how money won't be an issue for two rich people getting it on.

I suspect you're still mixing the positives with the negatives - we're not talking about achieving awesome sex, we're talking about the problems that logically follow from having poor sex for some reason you didn't anticipate.

[David Floyd]

I think it's also relevant to point out that while Jon Miller or Ben Kenobi or Cartimandua may not personally tie poor sexual compatibility to increased likelihood of a failed marriage or a strained marriage, it is true that every statistic I have heard does tie either a poor sex life or poor sexual compatibility to strained/failed marriages.

Again, sex, in my opinion, is only special insofar as it is a very natural part of us - humans in general have a strong sex drive, and repressing said sex drive by restricting sex to marriage isn't compatible with our biology. If you take religion out of the mix, there is no reason to wait until marriage - none whatsoever. Add religion in, and you'll have plenty of people believing that God wants them to wait until marriage, or that there are tangible benefits to waiting, but by and large (and, Cartimandua, I certainly mean no offense to you, but the fact that waiting until marriage didn't cause any problems for you doesn't imply that NOT waiting would have led to a worse result), this just isn't the case.

[Jon Miller]

I think you are conflating the symptom with the disease.

JM

[Ben Kenobi]

Again, sex, in my opinion, is only special insofar as it is a very natural part of us - humans in general have a strong sex drive, and repressing said sex drive by restricting sex to marriage isn't compatible with our biology.

This has a few packaged assumptions.

1. You are assuming that married people have on average less sex then those who are unmarried. That's not the case. Being married you are more likely to have sex then if you aren't married.

If you take religion out of the mix, there is no reason to wait until marriage - none whatsoever.

STD's anyone? Condom failure. Problems with birth control. There are plenty of consequences associated with sex before marriage that have nothing to do with religion.

that waiting until marriage didn't cause any problems for you doesn't imply that NOT waiting would have led to a worse result), this just isn't the case.

Cartimandua said explicitly that she prefers to know that her husband has nothing else but her to compare to, and the same for her. That's a benefit you won't get unless you both wait.

I said another about growing together, which is sort of the same thing. You learn and make mistakes but you get better over time.

[David Floyd]

1. You are assuming that married people have on average less sex then those who are unmarried. That's not the case. Being married you are more likely to have sex then if you aren't married.

I don't necessarily make that assumption - I think it's different for everyone. I do know that an average complaint amongst guys is that once they get married, the quantity of sex goes down. Also, your point doesn't really address my point, which was that WAITING until marriage, ie, suppressing our inherent sex drive, was unnatural. That is, regardless of the quantity of sex after marriage, it remains true that not having sex until marriage doesn't make much biological sense.

STD's anyone? Condom failure. Problems with birth control. There are plenty of consequences associated with sex before marriage that have nothing to do with religion.

Condom failure and address two things - pregnancy and STDs. Birth control addresses only pregnancy. I don't think you are arguing that it is more likely for premarital sex to lead to pregnancy than for postmarital sex to lead to the same, so I won't make what I'm sure would be an attack on a strawman. I will, however, say that bringing up those points is possibly a bit disingenuous, since marriage has nothing to do with the physical likelihood of pregnancy.

To address STDs, yes, STDs are a problem. However, regular testing combined with condom use can easily control this problem. Put another way, if you only have protected sex, you aren't likely to get an STD, and if, prior to engaging in unprotected sex with a long-term partner, you both prove that you are STD-free, then there's no problem other than pregnancy, which we've already determined is irrelevant to the subject of pre vs. post marital sex.

Granted, there is a certain amount of risk regardless from STDs - as you've implied, condoms are not perfect. Then again, neither is life. On the other hand, I'm perfectly willing to admit that in order to eliminate the risk of STDs, it is necessary to only have sex with disease free partners. That can imply - but does not HAVE to imply - that you wait for marriage. As I've pointed out, there are medical methods for discovering you are disease free, and if you are careful about following those methods prior to having sex, there should be no problem. Additionally, even if you wait until marriage to have sex, you are still at risk for STDs. In order to eliminate that risk, your partner would have to be disease free.

So, yes. Waiting until marriage to have sex is one way to control the spread of STDs, but not the only way.

Cartimandua said explicitly that she prefers to know that her husband has nothing else but her to compare to, and the same for her. That's a benefit you won't get unless you both wait.

I said another about growing together, which is sort of the same thing. You learn and make mistakes but you get better over time.

Yes, that's a personal preference, and that's fine. It is not, however, without risks. As I stated above, I am very confident that neither you nor her would allow sexual problems stemming from inexperience to impact a marriage. The fact of the matter is, though, that many marriage problems DO stem from sex - it could be inexperience, incompatibility, refusal to fulfill each other's needs, quantity, quality, etc.

I'm not saying that choosing to wait until marriage is an invalid choice. I'm just saying that most of the reasons for doing so stem from religion. I'd be willing to admit that not all of those reasons do, if you'd be willing to take a hard look at yourself and ask yourself whether you developed your attitudes about sex independent of your faith.

I'm also saying that choosing to abstain is an unnatural and unnecessary choice - unnatural in that our sex drives imply that having sex is a natural part of us, and unnecessary in that the main consequences of sex (pregnancy and STDs) are both largely preventable and present in married and unmarried relationships alike.

[Aeson]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
1. You are assuming that married people have on average less sex then those who are unmarried. That's not the case. Being married you are more likely to have sex then if you aren't married.

(Only if you wait till marriage...)

[Jon Miller]

Actually, many married people say that they have had more sex after they were married, because they had extended times of drought before hand. It probably depends on the person though.

JM

[Aeson]

I learned everything I know about marriage from Al Bundy.

[Cartimandua]

[SIZE=1] suppressing our inherent sex drive, was unnatural. That is, regardless of the quantity of sex after marriage, it remains true that not having sex until marriage doesn't make much biological sense.

If you are basing this on biological reasoning, then you must know that the only reason biologically to have sex is to reproduce. Therefore, the only time you could justify having sex is when the woman is ovulating and thus more likely to conceive. If you disagree with this and you want sex the other 3 weeks of the month, then perhaps biology should stay out of this conversation.

[SIZE=1] I'm also saying that choosing to abstain is an unnatural and unnecessary choice - unnatural in that our sex drives imply that having sex is a natural part of us

If you are saying that it is a bad thing to repress our natural urges, then we must take into consideration that not all of our natural urges should be followed, or are in our best interests. Every time I pass the frozen food aisle at the grocery store I have a natural urge to eat ice cream which is something nutritionists say it is not good for me. Perhaps someone else has an urge to be violent when upset, should we excuse the beatings he gives his wife simply because it was a natural urge that he followed?

[SIZE=1] I'm not saying that choosing to wait until marriage is an invalid choice. I'm just saying that most of the reasons for doing so stem from religion. I'd be willing to admit that not all of those reasons do, if you'd be willing to take a hard look at yourself and ask yourself whether you developed your attitudes about sex independent of your faith.

I'm not really sure what a person's faith has to do with this topic, or why you have decided that a person's faith makes their reasons for abstinence invalid. Personally, I chose my religion because it followed my previously established moral and belief system. Does that disqualify me from this discussion?

I could say more, but I don't see the point.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I'm a radical about this topic. I think if she wants it, she's got it, and that it's important for me to do my best even if I'm not really up for it at the time.

As pointed out, let's see if you can find a woman who thinks the same way... and if you do, it really isn't all that much fun when the woman isn't into it and is just doing it because you want it at that time (unless she's a good faker... but all sorts of problems from that too).

Again, this is from the perspective, (both of these questions!) really only make sense for someone who is already sexually active prior to marriage.

Not really. Look at the porn industry and its increasing profits/usage. People generally have an idea of what they may want to try prior to becoming sexually active.

How will she know how much sex she wants until she's had some experience with the guy she's married? She won't, not really. Neither will he.

I'm assuming there will be some idea based on, let's say... manual stimulation.

Same with the kinkier stuff. If you've never had sex why would you have a desire to go beyond that? Wouldn't you both want to make sure you get the basics right before trying anything else?

And then after the basics, what then? People may have different ideas of what is a turn on (aside from the attractiveness of the partner)... and they may have those ideaas prior to having sex.

[Ben Kenobi]

As pointed out, let's see if you can find a woman who thinks the same way... and if you do, it really isn't all that much fun when the woman isn't into it and is just doing it because you want it at that time (unless she's a good faker... but all sorts of problems from that too).

I agree, but that works both ways Imran. If you look, I said specifically the case where she would want it more then I would.

I would think I have a duty to my wife to try to keep her as happy and satisfied as possible. If she's asking then I have a responsibility to do my best.

I guess what I'm trying to say is it isn't about me, but about making her happy. And making her happy makes me happy too. So even if I wasn't in the mood to begin with, I sure feel better afterwards.

Not really. Look at the porn industry and its increasing profits/usage. People generally have an idea of what they may want to try prior to becoming sexually active.

Ok, I would say that a bigger role is played by what 'everybody else' is doing, or at least what they say they are doing. You don't want to be seen as less capable then other people, and it is very hard to wait even if you have the support from other folks.

I'm assuming there will be some idea based on, let's say... manual stimulation.

You don't have to be bashful, Imran! Point taken.

And then after the basics, what then? People may have different ideas of what is a turn on (aside from the attractiveness of the partner)... and they may have those ideaas prior to having sex.

I think it's important to share these things, but it's also important to come to a compromise. What is important is that both of you are fulfilled. If you haven't tried these other things, then the situation is much different then if you have.

Look at it this way. If you are used to blow jobs, then to you it is a real loss to do without them. Two folks just starting out, well it's not really an issue, it's more like, I've heard other folks doing this and I always wanted to know what it felt like. You see what I'm saying.