Parents Say Students Forced To Learn Spanish

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Arrian


Could that be because he hasn't tried?

So... yeah, he doesn't try. And, shocker! He doesn't learn anything. Maybe he *should* drop out...

What, exactly, wouldn't have failed him?

-Arrian

I couldn't have said it better myself, thanks Arrian.

You bank so much on the ability to force school and force knowledge onto people, but even in such a situation there still exists some element of choice for the student. They can play the game or they can check out. I played the game for far too long before I recognized it wasn't worth playing. The guy I tutor for checked out. He didn't try, you're right. Not at first, I'm sure. At first I'm sure he tried, and failed, and was humiliated and demoralized by it so he stopped trying.

This is exactly what school does.

So as much as you are afraid of allowing students any kind of control over their own lives and their own future, the reality is that they DO have some control. But only some. School gives them enough choice to decide not to try.

So if you are afraid of students not in school just sitting around wasting time, how is that different from students sitting around wasting time inside of a school?

But it doesn't have to be that way. There is a better solution. If, the guy I tutor were able to live his life pursuing that which he found enjoyable and interesting from an early age without the fear of failure and humiliation, then who knows what avenues he would explore and pursuits he would now enjoy. If he were freed to explore his creativity and interests then he would undoubtedly be in a better situation today than he is now.

But then again, maybe I'm wrong.

Maybe school isn't the source of all his pain and trouble. Maybe he just isn't that bright. Maybe he just isn't that motivated. Maybe if we left him to his own devices he wouldn't try anything. Maybe school hasn't scarred him.

So if the fault is purely with him and with some innate characteristic of his, what are our options?

Either he goes to school, as he is currently, and spends 12 years frustrated, angry, and ashamed before one day graduating and getting a job working the register at Wal-Mart. Or he leaves school much earlier and starts working (or preparing for work via an apprenticeship or internship somewhere) early.

He ends up in the same place either way. But in the later scenario he is happier, gets to start working earlier (and thus makes more money) and he isn't sitting in a classroom somewhere tying up limited school dollars wasting the time of his teachers and disrupting the education of his classmates.

[Kidlicious]

Taxpayers are paying for them to go to school and we treat them like they are doing something for us, like we owe them something, and they aint done **** for it. That's the problem right there. Hell no they don't need electives. They need to learn what we tell them to learn.

[Ben Kenobi]

This is a really good discussion!

This isn't ol' Ozzy spouting off a bunch of crap I've pulled out of my ass. This happens. Thousands of children grow up with far less schooling than even I am advocating here and not only are they not ignorant, they are generally far smarter and more balanced than many.

Yes, schooling is not necessarily the equivalent of education, but let's look at this from a different perspective. Of these kids who taught themselves, how many were provided with an environment conducive to learning by their parents? You have to have books to learn to read, and have to be given them so that you do. A family that's always reading, the kids are just going to want to read too.

But as usual, you guys have an extraordinarily dim view of youth. My cousin has always been extremely eager to learn and go to school. If you had given her the choice not much would have been different for her except she'd be a bit happier not having had to take a few classes they found frustrating and pointless. Even around 10 or so my one cousin was interested in medicine and being a doctor. Now she is a senior at UCLA about to graduate and go on to medical school.

I would support a homeschool or 'self directed curriculum.' How many folks here on Poly would have loved to be able to take a series of tests that once they passed they were done with their high school education? I'm not convinced that the normal curriculum requires nearly so much time to complete, and that students could get through the whole thing much quicker if they were allowed to work at their own pace.

My third example is a high school student I currently tutor. He has made it through 10 years of school (both public and private). He is absolutely bored and frustrated by school. He struggles with simple concepts. All the basic skills you all maintain that school is supposed to teach, he never learned.

I am a freelance tutor. The very FIRST thing we do is accountability. "I'm not responsible for your grades. You are." The second is the whole motivation for learning. I tell them it isn't about the grade, but about the desire to learn more about the topic at hand.

Better teachers aren't the answer.

Nothing of what I do couldn't be done by teachers. The only difference is that I do things one on one, and I tend to advise the student through all their courses, not just one.

He doesn't want to be there, he doesn't like it, he doesn't care, it is difficult and frustrating for him. He doesn't want his teachers and his peers to think he is dumb so it is better to just not try.

You need to train yourself Ozzy. What's happening here is that he thinks intelligence is fixed, and that he's smart. So he's got nothing to gain by working, and everything to lose by trying, because if he tries and fails he won't be smart anymore.

Once again, better teachers aren't the answer. His parents are well off and sent him to various private schools, it doesn't make a difference.

Then he needs someone willing to take him one on one and to kick him in the ass.

So you have two situations. Either school is simply not right for these folks and they should be given the option of going into some kind of apprenticeship that can give them training in a field that interests them, or school is actually harmful to them and their prospects in life.

Ozzy, you have the wrong approach here. There isn't any reason why they cannot succeed at school. They need an attitude adjustment not some head arrangement.

By saying "you suck at school so take an apprenticeship" is a BAD, BAD approach. Sure people are gonna have more challenges, but if someone like me can earn a degree, I can't see why these folks couldn't.

Once again, far more radical methods of education than what I am here advocating have been tried and have succeeded stunningly. Even Montessori excels because it gives more choice and more freedom to students. And they start at like 3 or 4.

The basic curriculum doesn't let kids work at their own pace, and doesn't truly demand accountability for hard work. All it offers are grades.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Taxpayers are paying for them to go to school and we treat them like they are doing something for us, like we owe them something, and they aint done **** for it. That's the problem right there. Hell no they don't need electives. They need to learn what we tell them to learn.

I can't wait till you are old and feable and sucking off the public trough. I sure don't owe you **** either. Do what I tell you, old man.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Arrian
So... yeah, he doesn't try. And, shocker! He doesn't learn anything. Maybe he *should* drop out...

Actually he should be kicked out. Then he will be free to do whatever he wants.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by OzzyKP


I can't wait till you are old and feable and sucking off the public trough. I sure don't owe you **** either. Do what I tell you, old man.

We only need whats best for them. Do you realize how many of them end up in prison, welfare or dead before they turn 25?

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
This is a really good discussion!

Thanks!

I always try to elevate threads I participate in.

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Yes, schooling is not necessarily the equivalent of education, but let's look at this from a different perspective. Of these kids who taught themselves, how many were provided with an environment conducive to learning by their parents? You have to have books to learn to read, and have to be given them so that you do. A family that's always reading, the kids are just going to want to read too.

You're right.

Students who excel in school (or out of school) usually have a conducive environment. Those who fail in school (or out of school) have a poor environment. Precisely proving my point that most of us learn more outside of school than we do inside of school. The real lessons of life and how to live in society are not taught in school. School is largely irrelevant except to teach people to obey orders, memorize a few facts that may or may not be useful in their lives (and they may or may not remember), create a fear of failure and stamp out creativity.

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
I would support a homeschool or 'self directed curriculum.' How many folks here on Poly would have loved to be able to take a series of tests that once they passed they were done with their high school education? I'm not convinced that the normal curriculum requires nearly so much time to complete, and that students could get through the whole thing much quicker if they were allowed to work at their own pace.

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
I am a freelance tutor. The very FIRST thing we do is accountability. "I'm not responsible for your grades. You are." The second is the whole motivation for learning. I tell them it isn't about the grade, but about the desire to learn more about the topic at hand.

And if they have absolutely no desire to learn about the topic? What then?

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Nothing of what I do couldn't be done by teachers. The only difference is that I do things one on one, and I tend to advise the student through all their courses, not just one.

If schools weren't filled with students who didn't want to be there, then teachers could spend more one on one time with the students who did want to be there.

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
You need to train yourself Ozzy. What's happening here is that he thinks intelligence is fixed, and that he's smart. So he's got nothing to gain by working, and everything to lose by trying, because if he tries and fails he won't be smart anymore.

Yea, I'm not a very good tutor.

He doesn't think he is smart though. But if he tries and fails then he shows himself to be dumb. If he skips class, slacks off, shrugs it off, then he looks above it all, defiant, class clown. That gets him the respect of his peers (sadly). While I suck as a tutor, at the very least I've gotten him to value my opinion and relationship very highly. So some little part of what effort he does show, I think he does for me.

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Then he needs someone willing to take him one on one and to kick him in the ass.

I try. I kick his ass. But if he doesn't care about it, just making him or forcing him doesn't solve anything. Of course I can't get him to care nor can I tell him to leave school. So I just push him harder and we both end up frustrated.

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Ozzy, you have the wrong approach here. There isn't any reason why they cannot succeed at school. They need an attitude adjustment not some head arrangement.

By saying "you suck at school so take an apprenticeship" is a BAD, BAD approach. Sure people are gonna have more challenges, but if someone like me can earn a degree, I can't see why these folks couldn't.

Ah, that's my point. Apprenticeship should never be seen as some kind of remedial program for those who can't cut it in school. School should be taken off its pedestal. Believe it or not you can have a very happy life and make gobs of money as a high school drop out. And I don't mean the Bill Gates exception types. Some trades jobs are very well paid. But society, for some reason, doesn't value the jobs we have the most of. In many circles a blue collar job is considered a failure. My dad is a blue collar union worker. Doesn't have a college degree (one credit shy actually). And he is quite well off.

We over value college when it simply isn't for everyone. But now everyone is pushed into college and the price has skyrocketed putting a far greater burden on students and their families while at the same time making a college degree ubiquitous and driving down the value of that degree. So way too many people are trying to find a limited pool of white collar professional jobs and all have college degrees. To stand out now you need to go to grad school and the educational inflation continues.

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
The basic curriculum doesn't let kids work at their own pace, and doesn't truly demand accountability for hard work. All it offers are grades.

It is detached from the real world. Learning is a part of life, yet we remove people from life to try and teach them. It is scatterbrained.

[Ben Kenobi]

And if they have absolutely no desire to learn about the topic? What then?

That's your business decision, not mine. I don't solicit students, the ones I have I have had for awhile now, or the student gets a referral to me and I talk with them beforehand, so I know the situation, so the situation is different. I don't have to put up with the bull****, that "I am the one paying you so you have to help me." No I don't. Plenty of other tutors out there.

He doesn't think he is smart though. But if he tries and fails then he shows himself to be dumb. If he skips class, slacks off, shrugs it off, then he looks above it all, defiant, class clown. That gets him the respect of his peers (sadly). While I suck as a tutor, at the very least I've gotten him to value my opinion and relationship very highly. So some little part of what effort he does show, I think he does for me.

Which subjects are you tutoring him in? I am telling you it's a fixed intelligence deal. You have to show him that the harder he works, the more he will learn and the better he will do.

I try. I kick his ass. But if he doesn't care about it, just making him or forcing him doesn't solve anything. Of course I can't get him to care nor can I tell him to leave school. So I just push him harder and we both end up frustrated.

So what are the consequences for him of failure? Half your job is to figure out "why he isn't motivated" and the other half is to figure out, "what will motivate him". Somewhere in there you get the material.

Ah, that's my point. Apprenticeship should never be seen as some kind of remedial program for those who can't cut it in school.

Teach him an old value, there should be some books around, maybe something from Kipling. It used to be the value that a man should learn a profession and a trade, so as to always have some form of employment. It also helps when you have to keep a house going to be able to fix things, as well as your vehicle, etc. Self reliance is very important.

School should be taken off its pedestal. Believe it or not you can have a very happy life and make gobs of money as a high school drop out. And I don't mean the Bill Gates exception types. Some trades jobs are very well paid. But society, for some reason, doesn't value the jobs we have the most of. In many circles a blue collar job is considered a failure. My dad is a blue collar union worker. Doesn't have a college degree (one credit shy actually). And he is quite well off.

Oh, I agree that school is more about dotting i's and crossing t's and jumping hoops to get that degree at the end. The choice and the decision to do so, shouldn't be one of "I suck at school so I should do a trade", but which trade would I be most skilled?

To stand out now you need to go to grad school and the educational inflation continues.

Up here a high school teacher needs 6 years of education, which is way too much. 4 at most.

It is detached from the real world. Learning is a part of life, yet we remove people from life to try and teach them. It is scatterbrained.

Send me a pm. I might be able to help you with your recalcitrant student.

[Alexander I]

Perfect solution to the problem elaborated in the OP: make all the students, whether English- or Spanish-speaking, learn Latin as a common tongue.

That way all the students are bilingual, everyone can communicate with everyone else, and no one is happy.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Latin as the official language

[-Jrabbit]

BTW kids, the video Ozzy posted is excellent.

I've been to war with my local school boards, with principals and teachers, becasue they couldn't keep my daughter engaged. I've seen the pathetic and self-indulgent MBA-ification of the education process (read: "oucome-based" education). I know and understand the problems, and they are many.

But kids aren't equipped to make rational decisions about their future needs. What's needed is a fresh approach to accommodating different styles of learning, and a vastly liberalized idea of what constitutes a reasonable curriculum.

The key is to utilize the existing infrastructure in innovative ways. However, I do believe that should still include compulsory core curriculum. Even actors and artists benefit from knowing basic math and language.

[Dr Strangelove]

There have been some studies demonstrating that teaching children a second language in elementary or middle school offers no benefit, i.e., that students hwo began studying the second language in high school did as well as those who had some instruction in earlier grades. Our county used that data as an excuse to shut down all language programs prior to high school.

Though three languages are offered in high school: French, Spanish and Latin, Latin is not fully supported. Students who take Latin must buy their textbooks. In all fully supported subjects they can rent them.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by -Jrabbit
But kids aren't equipped to make rational decisions about their future needs. What's needed is a fresh approach to accommodating different styles of learning, and a vastly liberalized idea of what constitutes a reasonable curriculum.

It's called a thorough, nationwide system of magnet schools, so you can give a good education to the kids who can use it.

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Though three languages are offered in high school: French, Spanish and Latin, Latin is not fully supported. Students who take Latin must buy their textbooks. In all fully supported subjects they can rent them.

In many places German is offered too, but it's not properly supported either.

[Admiral]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


About 75% of my classes in the last 2 years of HS were electives. Overall, probably 50-60% were. It's a great system

Electives are great, though clearly they are only really effective at a HS level. But really, you went to a HS that is better funded and more prestigious than 95% of the other public schools in the country. My HS, for instance, was not able to afford to offer than many electives.