Planet Earth without the USA

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Patroklos

It is enough to defeat every standing military in Europe, just not to occupy it. Which they won't want to do, like I said.

Who said anything about occupation. Think Ostrogoths/Visigoths. We just rush in, spank your armies, let you pay us off, and then head back to a small place we carved out for ourselves (souther italy sounds nice).

I don't think they will start a state or dynasty. While perhaps a little bloodthristy, they will still be Americans. We don't do the whole "SPARTAAAA!!!" thing. We will just steal, take, and demand tribute until we fade away...

They will be too busy with 500 million Chinese refugees to care about us.

Oh, I thought you were considering an occupation scenario. Anyway they still couldn't defeat every remaning NATO army. But the Visigoths are a good example. BTW why not just launch raids form the Eastern US coast (Vikings) you could import all the slaves you would need there? Or if you want the infrastructure: Canada?

Originally posted by Patroklos

They will be too busy with 500 million Chinese refugees to care about us.

That would be a good point if Russians didn't have the largest nuclear arsenal on the planet.

BTW Disregarding that, do you think its possible they would act as mercs for the Russia (who would naturally be at least financially supported by the Japanese and Europeans) vs. the Chinese?

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Whoha


For starters, the major import market of the entire world just vanished. Chinas somewhat far off problem just got dumped in their lap immediately. The west would make common cause against this because it has previously done so, and the other groups, while not unified themselves, would attack. World peace is actually not the normal state of things.

The west generally falls under all of our treaty partners, nato,seato,etc.

So China's response to losing one of it's major trading partners is to attack it's other major trading partner?

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Whoha


For starters, the major import market of the entire world just vanished. Chinas somewhat far off problem just got dumped in their lap immediately. The west would make common cause against this because it has previously done so, and the other groups, while not unified themselves, would attack. World peace is actually not the normal state of things.

The west generally falls under all of our treaty partners, nato,seato,etc.

I doubt African and south American states would rise up and declare war. Anyway wars don't start *during* such crippling depressions. They follow them after some time.

BTW Would China, ironically, become a Jeltsin type Democracy?

[Whoha]

They have the whole 20 million men with no hope of marriage, and now no job. its either attack, or suffer internal revolt.

Anyway wars don't start *during* such crippling depressions. They follow them after some time.

Didn't WW2 start during a depression?

When ww2 rolled in everybody dreaded it. ww1 was almost awful enough to head off ww2. Now the world is every bit as conscious of the stupidity of world war as they were after ww1 with the added knowledge that nuclear weapons make winning a world war look almost as ugly as losing. Who would start the world war? It sure wouldn't be likely to solve China's new problems. You'd need a Hitler in charge of one of the major powers to get your world war.

For 200 years Europeans have been saying that war is over, and for 200 years Wars have just gotten bloodier and bloodier with only a recent turn around due to Nuclear weapons. Maybe you'll be right after all this time, but I doubt it.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Whoha


For starters, the major import market of the entire world just vanished. Chinas somewhat far off problem just got dumped in their lap immediately. The west would make common cause against this because it has previously done so, and the other groups, while not unified themselves, would attack. World peace is actually not the normal state of things.

The west generally falls under all of our treaty partners, nato,seato,etc.

When ww2 rolled in everybody dreaded it. ww1 was almost awful enough to head off ww2. Now the world is every bit as conscious of the stupidity of world war as they were after ww1 with the added knowledge that nuclear weapons make winning a world war look almost as ugly as losing. Who would start the world war? It sure wouldn't be likely to solve China's new problems. You'd need a Hitler in charge of one of the major powers to get your world war.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by LordShiva


So China's response to losing one of it's major trading partners is to attack it's other major trading partner?

My first thought exactley.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Whoha
They have the whole 20 million men with no hope of marriage, and now no job. its either attack, or suffer internal revolt.


Didn't WW2 start during a depression?

At the very least the states that started the war had recovered from it.

The Chinese as I mentioned have a whol new continet just waiting for them, they just lift the one child policy and off they go. And why not simply conqer and annex Central Asia instead?

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Geronimo
You'd need a Hitler in charge of one of the major powers to get your world war.

That could happen, but again, it would take some time.

[Whoha]

The Chinese lack the ability to move large numbers of people up to claim the US in time before others do so,also the whole US nuclear navy might work to prevent such an undertaking. And they would still have the demographics issue even with the new land.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Whoha
The Chinese lack the ability to move large numbers of people up to claim the US in time before others do so,also the whole US nuclear navy might work to prevent such an undertaking. And they would still have the demographics issue even with the new land.

The whole US navy is much smaller a threat that the whole West minus America. Anyhow they could just say: America is ours or else! And they have all the time in the world to move peasants there.

Once again I recommend Central Asia, some oil fields, no major trading partners, no nuclear powers. Well, there would be the risk of Russian intervention.

[Vesayen]

Heraclitus, I have to ask, are you crazy? Our deployed forces are not strong enough to conquer EUROPE. At our full strength now we could not do it, what have you been smoking?

Just because there have been a reduction in the size of European armies does not mean they don't exist....

Why are you under the delusion that the remnants of the U.S. army in a foreign country can just plop down and say "this is ours now".

The rankers in the U.S. military are mostly good men, they aren't going to make a land grab or conquer anyone.


Why the heck would the remnant of the army want to plop down and "claim" anywhere anyway? Newsflash. Americans soldiers are part of western civilization, why wouldn't they just settle down in some European country, or head back to the U.S.?

[Patroklos]

BTW Disregarding that, do you think its possible they would act as mercs for the Russia (who would naturally be at least financially supported by the Japanese and Europeans) vs. the Chinese?

Seriously? Some would go reverse swords for plowshars and head back to the US. Proably expanding form the infrustucture on the Canadian border and working themselves down.

Most would just incorporate themselves into developed European countires because, lets face it, Americans are not the mountainer/pioneer types anymore and we will miss our Western style homes.

Perhaps as a trade for absorbing us into your fold we will fight on behalf of our new homes. In fact, given we have nothing left and were accepted by friends, I would expect us to be fearsly protective of them.

[Whoha]

Originally posted by Heraclitus


The whole US navy is much smaller a threat that the whole West minus America. Anyhow they could just say: America is ours or else! And they have all the time in the world to move peasants there.

Their or else would be called, then they'd have to use what they have on South America most likely, or admit to bluffing. And the US navy is the force that can interdict any shipments they try to make.

Once again I recommend Central Asia, some oil fields, no major trading partners, no nuclear powers. Well, there would be the risk of Russian intervention.

They'll take Central Asia, but I don't think that they'll stop there.

[Vesayen]

Really I think most of the U.S. armed forces, assuming it was able to, would head to the U.K and the rest of Europe, or Canada.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Vesayen
Heraclitus, I have to ask, are you crazy? Our deployed forces are not strong enough to conquer EUROPE. At our full strength now we could not do it, what have you been smoking?

Just because there have been a reduction in the size of European armies does not mean they don't exist....

Why are you under the delusion that the remnants of the U.S. army in a foreign country can just plop down and say "this is ours now".

The rankers in the U.S. military are mostly good men, they aren't going to make a land grab or conquer anyone.

Hey I never proposed it. It isn't my idea. I think Whoha proposed it and Patroklos toyed around with it for a bit. Believe me I know just how impossible it is. Anyway I was trying to be gentle to *some* peoples beliefs.

On the second point you may be right, I already said the most probable thing is their assimilation into the EU/Canada and become of part of their armed forces or some attempt backed by said countries to remake a small US.

This would be because of practicality not because of the fact that “they are good men and women” Some military equipment would get sold, some would become mercs, you can’t deny that. It’s just a question of how many. It would probably be a question of how quickly someone took command of US forces. Most of the US navy would probably submit to such orders, the army may be another matter, The most radical scenario I can think of is a charismatic US general defying such orders and leading some of the US troops to get supplies by whatever means necessary.