Chinese sub plays Marco Polo with US Navy battle fleet... and wins.

[Patroklos]

This means China could pearl harbor us though.. isn't that a bad thing?

For all I know Chinese subs might be able do slip through our ASW defenses easily, but this event doesn't prove it one way or the other.

[Whoha]

Originally posted by Patroklos
As an intelligent poster on CFC said, "I could make a layup run against Shaq while he is reading his paper at the bus stop, that speaks nothing of me being able to do the same on the court at game time."

These ships were on a war time exercise. I would be interested in knowing why there wasn't an active sonar screen for the group, and whether or not the assumption that they were running the carrier through a single route deemed "optimal" repeatedly is true.

Originally posted by BlackCat
Quite true, but it all boils down to one thing - it was pure accident / routine maneuvres that made it possible for the chinese subs to do what they did - not due to chinese capabilities.

Having such fantasies about supremacy can be extremely lethal.

This is not some new capability. Diesel/electric is WW2 vintage. That said, ships running on battery can be extremely quiet. The answer of course is to do what was done during WW2, and just spam out a ton of cheap active sonar pickets. There is just one problem though, we lack the shipyard capacity to do that.

[Patroklos]

These ships were on a war time exercise. I would be interested in knowing why there wasn't an active sonar screen for the group, and whether or not the assumption that they were running the carrier through a single route deemed "optimal" repeatedly is true.

The OP says "exercises", but what kind? Anit air? Surface warfare? Resue? Flight ops? Strike? There are a thousand things they could have been practicing that would have nothing to do with ASW. Or the scenario they were using did not include a submarine threat in the case of a full wargame. I don't know, neither do you.

From the OP, it sounds like they were just on their way somewhere.

[Impaler[WrG]]

The point of my original post was to point out a senario by which a disel-electric sub would be nearly impossible to detect. By lying in wait for it prey rather then trying to sneak up on it a sub can achive levels of quietude that surpass that of the US's best Nuclear Submarines.

I erronious read the original original article as saying the insident occured betewen "China and Tiawan" when it infact says Japan and Tiawan which is the open Pacific and not a place you could easily have a sub lay in wait for a fleet to pass over as you could in the Tiawan Strait.

Given that the senario I proposed seems less likley and the sub activly moving through the screen seems more likley. If the screen was down then it is indeed a non-issue. The alternative still seems possible as the disel-electrics are said to be darn quiet.

[Kuciwalker]

The point of my original post was to point out a senario by which a disel-electric sub would be nearly impossible to detect. By lying in wait for it prey rather then trying to sneak up on it a sub can achive levels of quietude that surpass that of the US's best Nuclear Submarines.

I thought diesel subs were already quieter than nukes.

[Patroklos]

I thought diesel subs were already quieter than nukes.

On batteries, yes.

[Alinestra Covelia]

Didn't this already happen like a year ago?

I read the article and it sounded very familiar.

[Alinestra Covelia]

Answer: Yes it did.

http://www.sinodaily.com/reports/Chinese_Sub_Approached_US_Aircraft_Carrier_Undetected_999.html

Chinese Sub Approached US Aircraft Carrier Undetected

File photo: A Chinese Song-Class submarine.
by Jim Mannion
Washington (AFP) Nov 14, 2006
A Chinese submarine came within a few miles (kilometers) of a US aircraft carrier in international waters near Okinawa last month without being detected, a Pentagon spokesman confirmed Tuesday. Spokesman Bryan Whitman played down the security breach, saying he did not believe the Chinese Song-class submarine was considered a threat.

"I think you're generating more concern than perhaps is warranted," he told reporters.

But submarines of the type involved in the incident carry weapons capable of striking a carrier from a distance of more than 25 miles (40 km), an expert on the Chinese military said.

"Any time a potentially hostile submare operates in such proximity to critical naval assets like an aircraft carrier should be of concern to American military leaders," said Richard Fisher.

The Washington Times, which first reported the encounter, said the navy was reviewing its anti-submarine defenses and that China analysts at the Pentagon were surprised that a Chinese submarine was operating so far from the mainland.

Whitman said a US naval strike group led by the aircraft carrier USS Kitty Hawk was conducting routine training operations in the East China sea near Okinawa in October when the incident occurred.

"During these operations a Chinese Navy Song-class submarine was sighted near the strike group by US Navy aircraft," he said.

"My understanding is that this was several miles away," he said.

The Kitty Hawk was not actively engaged in anti-submarine warfare operations during the exercise, Whitman said, explaining why it did not detect the Chinese submarine sooner.

The Pentagon spokesman said he was not aware that any complaints had been lodged with the Chinese.

News of the incident came as commander of the US Pacific Fleed, Admiral Gary Roughead, was in Beijing for talks with Chinese military leaders ahead of a joint search and rescue exercise in the South China Sea.

"I really would like to know what the intent is in some of the developments that I see in the PLA navy," Roughead told reporters Monday.

He said these included the expansion of China's submarine fleet and procurement of ships.

"I look foward to having discussions about what the vision is and perhaps what some of the operating doctrine might be," Roughead said.

Fisher said incidents at sea between the two navies are likely to increase as China's ocean-going naval operations expand in the years ahead.

"It is my opinion the Chinese are going to be posturing against US military forces in Asia increasingly in the coming years," he told AFP.

"They are building a blue water navy. They have made clear in the past, a bit more subtly but consistently, that they are not at all accepting of the American military presence in what they see as their sphere of influence," he said.

He said China appears to be building a base on the tip of Hainan Island from which to deploy ballistic missile submarines and possibly future aircraft carriers across the South China Sea between China and Philippines.

"As a consequence I expect there may be many opportunities for naval incidents as the Chinese take exception to the presence of American navy ships transiting between northeast Asia and the Persian Gulf," he said.

Hainan Island was where a US Navy EP-3 surveillance plane collided with a Chinese fighter on April 1, 2001 in the last major US-Chinese military confrontation.

The latest incident occurred near Okinawa where the bulk of US forces in Japan are based.

"In the event of a general, out-of-the-blue Chinese attack against Taiwan, in my opinion they will also attack all American forces in Japan," Fisher said.

"Making sure their submarine commanders are familiar with operating around Okinawa or close to Japan is a competency the Chinese want to develop," he said.

Source: Agence France-Presse

[Kidlicious]

Carriers are so sitting ducks for those things. I'm glad I'm not on one anymore.

[Patroklos]

The funny thing is people think carriers sound different than any other large merchant on sonar. Please people, just THINK about the realities of naval warfare for a second.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Patroklos
The funny thing is people think carriers sound different than any other large merchant on sonar. Please people, just THINK about the realities of naval warfare for a second.

But the carriers look so good on the recruitment posters and in propaganda!

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Heraclitus
But the carriers look so good on the recruitment posters and in propaganda!

This looks much cooler:

[Alinestra Covelia]

Plus the precursor would have been a battleship, which is also vulnerable to submarines.

It's true, I swear! Rise of Nations proves it so! (And Civ2 battleships can't see subs either.)

[DinoDoc]

That's what destroyers are for.

[Alinestra Covelia]

Or helicopters, according to RONTAP.

And apparently any guy carrying a stick and walking with a dog can see submarines but cannot actually attack them.