CanPol - The Sad Story of Stephane Dion

[Wezil]

Yes, again not much to rebuild.

They were barely out of the stone age before we arrived and apparently a goodly number of them want to stay that way. It's not like we flattened the place in taking it.

[Asher]

There's no way this guy can lead a group of nuns to a church, let alone acountry.

[Ben Kenobi]

Japan and Germany were not the same and you know it.

Same idea. Why should we help them rebuild when they attacked us? Because they are westernised?

No, I think, and this is what Stalin figured out, that the Marshall Plan was a way to build two democratic allies on the doorstops of communism. In that regard they succeeded admirably.

Neither Germany nor Japan, had a long history of democracy, both were empires. Despite being industrialised, they were anomalies in that they were industrialised but not democratic. In this they bear similarities to Afghanistan today.

I know what you are saying, but quite frankly what you are talking about is not "rebuilding" but more like "making into".

Is that necessarily a bad thing? If our goal is to create a bulwark against radical islamism, then we ought to pursue the same course.

Their leaders didn't appear out of thin air. The Taliban message obviously has some appeal among the Pashtuns. Or do you think no one liked Hitler or the Emperor*, to use your earlier analogy?

No, but in order to prevent another Hitler or the Emperor of Japan from repeating the earlier mistake of the first world war, it was necessary to not only depose the current leadership, but to fill the gap in the meantime. Else we can guarantee that the power vaccuum will not turn out in our favour.

It is because the Taliban have appeal, is why we need to be careful to prevent the conditions from arising again. If the Japanese were ready for democracy in 1945 and the Indians in 1947 why aren't the people of Afghanistan ready?

[Wezil]

I'll cut what leads to this as this is the real point.

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

...
Is that necessarily a bad thing? If our goal is to create a bulwark against radical islamism, then we ought to pursue the same course.

"Bulwark"? Buttressed by what? Our good friends in Pakistan? Or maybe the Iranians? Nope, you must be thinking the other Stans to the north? Your bulwark is more like an island.

No, but in order to prevent another Hitler or the Emperor of Japan from repeating the earlier mistake of the first world war, it was necessary to not only depose the current leadership, but to fill the gap in the meantime. Else we can guarantee that the power vaccuum will not turn out in our favour.

Again, the comparison is weak. The Taliban aren't able to do much more than terrorize their own people. If we weren't stepping on their bombs which spring up like mushrooms they wouldn't be able to do much to us.

Even if there are AQ operating out of Afghanistan they will have to go take Pakistan to catch a plane to get anywhere useful.

It is because the Taliban have appeal, is why we need to be careful to prevent the conditions from arising again. If the Japanese were ready for democracy in 1945 and the Indians in 1947 why aren't the people of Afghanistan ready?

"arising again"? Newsflash. They never went away.

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Asher

There's no way this guy can lead a group of nuns to a church, let alone acountry.

Always trust Asher to be on topic.

That ad kills me. You knew when it happened it was going to end up in a Conservative ad. It was too good to be true.

I like how they need to subtitle what Dion is saying. In any english word of three or more syllables he is guaranteed to place the accent on the wrong syllable.

He is political roadkill.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Wezil
"Bulwark"? Buttressed by what? Our good friends in Pakistan? Or maybe the Iranians? Nope, you must be thinking the other Stans to the north? Your bulwark is more like an island.

So was Japan.

[Wezil]

They had the benefit of being a real island. If fighters weren't being waved across the border by Pakistani guards things would certainly be easier.

[notyoueither]

So again we return to your motif of it's hard so we should cut and run.

What I'm surprised by is that you are the only Canuck in this thread with that opinion.

Quite encouraging.

[Wezil]

Originally posted by notyoueither
So again we return to your motif of it's hard so we should cut and run.

No, this would be back to we have impossible goals. Or do you really think we can count on the neighbours to lend a helping hand?

What I'm surprised by is that you are the only Canuck in this thread with that opinion.

Quite encouraging.

In this thread. You should be about as encouraged as your leader.

edit: and there is that "cut and run" yet again. You really do parrot the talking points.

[notyoueither]

As do you.

[Wezil]

Example?

Should I refer to it as the "stick and die" mission? More than a little inflammatory, no?

It's like the whole magnet debate.

double edit: I'm exhausted nye. I'll have to leave any further answers until tomorrow.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Wezil
Example?

It's hopeless.

They're not worthy.

We should leave, immediately.

[Seeker]

I think the Iranians can be trusted IRT Afghanistan and Taliban fighters, it's just, um, politically awkward for us to appeal to them and work closely with them. There's your bulwark.

Also, it's really hard to estimate the popular support of the Taliban.

I'd like to optimistically place my faith in human nature that they really don't have much support outside of fundies, abject economic desperation, and fear.

Heck, it could only really be a few thousand hoodlums running loose in the hills.

It would be like Italy giving up Sicily to the mafia because we 'can't win' and the 'locals just shoot at us from the hills'. I think that's a way better parallel than WWII grandiosity.

And yet, after 25 years of judges getting blown up and politicians getting assassinated the mafia is essentially quelled in Sicily these days...mostly because of more infrastructure, jobs, and education. It was expensive in lives and treasure but it sure beats leaving it as a free-fire zone of hill-bandit barons like it used to be.

Oh, and yes Dion is just a mistake, the Libs are going through a silly season until the realize they need to get serious.

[Wezil]

Originally posted by notyoueither


It's hopeless.

They're not worthy.

We should leave, immediately.

Wow, who uses those talking points?

I've heard Harper use the little girls going to school and of course he's big on cut and run (his good buddy George taught him that one). He sets up a false choice bewteen little girls going to school or cutting and running. Very nice. Very shallow. Very dishonest.

"Hopeless" - If I used that word I apologize (I don't think I used it). There are more accurate words to describe the mission. I'm not a defeatist, just a realist. Having soldiers die for an unobtainable goal isn't noble or brave, it is just plain stupid.

"They are not worthy" - Nice twist on what I said. I said that I feel no responsibility to "fix" anything in Afghanistan. They attacked us not the other way around. I owe them no schools, roads or anything else. There are more worthy recipients of our largesse is what I said. Keep trying though.

"Immediately" - Again, where did you read this. I certainly argue we leave ASAP. At this point that would be Feb 2009 at the latest thanks to Harper's committment.

Sorry NYE but the mission supporters have filled a thread with rather lame justification for suppressing these people. The best posts I have seen came from VG in that at least he will recognise the failings in our plan. I'm not sure VG's ideas would work but at least he's thinking and not following the herd like too many Canadians.

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Seeker
I think the Iranians can be trusted IRT Afghanistan and Taliban fighters, it's just, um, politically awkward for us to appeal to them and work closely with them. There's your bulwark.

Also, it's really hard to estimate the popular support of the Taliban.

I'd like to optimistically place my faith in human nature that they really don't have much support outside of fundies, abject economic desperation, and fear.

Heck, it could only really be a few thousand hoodlums running loose in the hills.

The Americans claim otherwise wrt Iran and their intentions. Not that I have a lot of faith in their intel though.

The Taliban support is impossible to measure accurately, but the measures that we can take show a trend line in the opposite direction. Last year was the worst yet for political violence in Afghanistan. We are not making progress.