CanPol - The Sad Story of Stephane Dion

[notyoueither]

That is basically the plan, Seeker.

NATO secures areas of the country and then hands day to day security over to an expanding Afghan security apparatus.

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Seeker
Whatever happened to those old Northern Alliance Tajiks who fought the Pashtun Taliban for years?

I seem to remember them getting snazzy new uniforms and then...?

Maybe they should be fighting in the mountains in their own country while we do a support role.

They'll knife Karzai the moment we leave. There is a reason he still leaves his personal security to Americans.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
The point of the mission was to pwn the Taliban and eliminate Afghanistan as a harbour for AQ. Until we can be sure it'll stay that way when we leave, we should stay.

You're already beaten.

No-one has ever managed to stay in Afghanistan. Sooner or later the locals get tired of foreigners and start shooting at them. After that, it is just a question of how many dollars and casualties the foreigners want to lose.

It's a classic case of an unwinnable war. It would have been more prudent to have withdrawn immediately after defeating the Taliban the first time.

The people who run our countries are idiots. That's why you're in this mess.

[Wezil]

Agathon - I agree with you far more than can be healthy.

[Ben Kenobi]

I feel no responsibility in any way to a nation that attacked us. Anything done for their benefit would be charity and if we are about doing good, I think there are many far more worthy recipients. In addition, they don't want us. I'm sure somebody, somewhere is asking for our humanitarian help.

I think we do have a responsibility since we have intervened. It wasn't the Afghan people who attacked the US, but the terrorists funded and sponsored by the Taliban.

It's not about 'who needs us most,' but about making sure we don't harm the Afghans through our intervention to rid them of the Taliban.

I didn't support either war, but now we are there we should stay until things are better.

[Ben Kenobi]

You're already beaten.

No-one has ever managed to stay in Afghanistan. Sooner or later the locals get tired of foreigners and start shooting at them. After that, it is just a question of how many dollars and casualties the foreigners want to lose.

Hmm, I don't believe so. The point is not to occupy Afghanistan.

Just because the Soviet Union failed, doesn't mean that we will fail too. Getting the people to manage things themselves will be a positive step, something that will resonate with the average Afghan.

It's a classic case of an unwinnable war. It would have been more prudent to have withdrawn immediately after defeating the Taliban the first time.

The war has been won. Now we just have to win the peace. As you admit here, the Taliban have been defeated. Now the issues of governance and security have cropped up. Those are peace issues, not war issues.

The people who run our countries are idiots. That's why you're in this mess.

Really? Well I have a bit more faith in them. I don't think they are less skilled at governance then Canadians for that matter.

[Ben Kenobi]

Perhaps the answer is partition? Not that that process went all that smoothly in India (extreme understatement), but if you can't get them all to agree on one form of government, maybe you break off the south and start again with two countries?

Interesting suggestion. I don't know the fault lines with respect to the individual nationalities within Afghanistan.

That is the problem with partition, it draws arbitrary lines on a map to represent a division that is not nearly so severe.

I don't think partition is the solution, a federal system if it is workable would better represent the plurality of tribes within Afghanistan, with each state representing tribal territories. Giving them considerable autonomy would also keep them all together.

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


I think we do have a responsibility since we have intervened. It wasn't the Afghan people who attacked the US, but the terrorists funded and sponsored by the Taliban.

I understand your logic, but by that thinking our issue isn't really with the Taliban (I'm sure most of them were not involved/aware of 9/11) but with AQ.

[Ben Kenobi]

I understand your logic, but by that thinking our issue isn't really with the Taliban (I'm sure most of them were not involved/aware of 9/11) but with AQ.

Yes, Al Qaeda were the big players. By that logic we should have intervened in both Iraq and Afghanistan not just Afghanistan.

At the time, it was known that Bin Laden was in Afganistan and that the Taliban were sheltering and assisting Al-Qaeda. They refused to turn him over, so we invaded. Now we are responsible to fix things up again.

Honestly, I don't see us being there long, progress is being made. We just have to be a bit more patient. I saw a cartoon the other day that showed Canada shouldering the load. I wish I could have done a different one.

It would show Canada there with a load on their shoulders, sitting on a the shoulder of a two storey statue labelled 'America'.

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

At the time, it was known that Bin Laden was in Afganistan and that the Taliban were sheltering and assisting Al-Qaeda. They refused to turn him over, so we invaded. Now we are responsible to fix things up again.

And again, why is it our responsibility to fix things? They attacked us! Hell, who do we attack to get some schools and roads built?

[Ben Kenobi]

And again, why is it our responsibility to fix things? They attacked us! Hell, who do we attack to get some schools and roads built?

What about the Marshall plan? Fixing up Japan and Germany even though they launched attacks on us?

The point being, that it is not the people who were responsible but their leaders.

[Wezil]

Japan and Germany were not the same and you know it. Germany was heavily industrialized and westernized. Japan was also far more along than Afghanistan ever was. I know what you are saying, but quite frankly what you are talking about is not "rebuilding" but more like "making into".

Their leaders didn't appear out of thin air. The Taliban message obviously has some appeal among the Pashtuns. Or do you think no one liked Hitler or the Emperor*, to use your earlier analogy?

*Please, no quibbles from anyone here. I hear them ahead of time, I agree. Just making a point.

[Kuciwalker]

More importantly, Japan (especially) and Germany surrendered with their civil infrastructure largely intact.

[Wezil]

That was why I said "making into". There isn't really much to rebuild.

[Kuciwalker]

I meant things like police, the bureaucracy, etc.