Does Patriotism Make Sense?

[Shrapnel12]

I also suspect that in USA, Patriotism and Nationalism are basically synonyms.

That's a particularly anti-american biased thing to say. Sure there may be a lot of people in the USA that are nationalist, but that doesn't mean we all are. I myself have the same opinion as you. I'm patriotic, but I'm for fairness and cooperation with other countries.

[Whoha]

Originally posted by Blake
Speciests

FACT!

Every time you wash your hands, you are being a speciest. Those parasites and bacteria have just as much right to live as you, and it isn't their fault that they evolved to prey upon you.

Speciesism
Nationalism
Patriotism

[Blake]

Originally posted by Kidicious
The problem with that is still that there doesn't seem to be any reason to confine that to a geographical region.

Call it the bias of self. One can do the most good, where the self is. It's best to be focused on the prosperity of the area where you can actually do good. Otherwise it's basically that "I wish for world peace" thing.

Originally posted by Shrapnel12
That's a particularly anti-american biased thing to say. Sure there may be a lot of people in the USA that are nationalist, but that doesn't mean we all are. I myself have the same opinion as you. I'm patriotic, but I'm for fairness and cooperation with other countries.

Ah, sorry. I didn't mean that all American Patriots are also Nationalists (like "all sprockets are widgets" logic). I meant that the way the terms are USED, and I mean particularly the term "unpatriotic" which when used in America definitely seems to be a synonym for un-nationalistic. I'd actually say the term "Patriotism" has been subverted towards political ends. But that's just my view.

Originally posted by Whoha
Every time you wash your hands, you are being a speciest. Those parasites and bacteria have just as much right to live as you, and it isn't their fault that they evolved to prey upon you.

Maybe I don't wash my hands?

Okay, I do. But I firmly support my gut fauna's right to life. There's a trillion of the little buggers. If this host bites it, they do too. So some bacterium must die, that others may live.

Seriously: Things are relative, not absolute. Humans have a relatively large amount of right to live, inevitably the top of the food chain does - otherwise in the natural order of things, the biosphere would break down (ie you kill the wolves the deer overpopulate and decimate the forest). The fallacy is in thinking humans have an ABSOLUTE right to live, at any expense of lives of other species.

[Whoha]

way to justify your speciesism with more speciesism

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Blake
Call it the bias of self. One can do the most good, where the self is. It's best to be focused on the prosperity of the area where you can actually do good. Otherwise it's basically that "I wish for world peace" thing.

No ones saying that you shouldn't do good in your community. That's not patriotism.

[Kidlicious]

Patriotism I think is an act, a game, and a tool for manipulation of the weak minded.

[Berzerker]

Pekka

Critical thinking+Science > Moral codes of the world.

Natural law aint a moral code you'd find in many places

You have to prove that natural rights exist. Oh, it's really just an abstract? WEll, science has shown that humans have survival instinct.

Science didn't need to show we have a survival instinct and it aint abstract, its real simple - somebody tries to murder you and you successfully defend yourself by killing your attacker. Your action is justified, natural law says you have the right - the moral claim - to defend yourself. Maybe you should bone up on your critical thinking

Kid

Everything that I don't want to happen to me is immoral. Go figure.

Then why did you dodge my question about rape? This is like pulling teeth. So now it isn't instinct that defines your morality, but what you dont want happening to you (others). You changed your definition. Is old age immoral? Watch out Kid, you're coming real close to the Golden Rule... So, its immoral to try and murder Kid because he doesn't want a bad thing happening to him. Thats a moral claim, and thats what natural law calls a "right". A right to not be murdered - a moral claim to not be murdered.

[Kidlicious]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Berzerker
Pekka

Natural law aint a moral code you'd find in many places



Science didn't need to show we have a survival instinct and it aint abstract, its real simple - somebody tries to murder you and you successfully defend yourself by killing your attacker. Your action is justified, natural law says you have the right - the moral claim - to defend yourself. Maybe you should bone up on your critical thinking

Kid

Then why did you dodge my question about rape?

I didn't dodge your question.

This is like pulling teeth. So now it isn't instinct that defines your morality, but what you dont want happening to you (others). You changed your definition. Is old age immoral? Watch out Kid, you're coming real close to the Golden Rule... So, its immoral to try and murder Kid because he doesn't want a bad thing happening to him. Thats a moral claim, and thats what natural law calls a "right". A right to not be murdered - a moral claim to not be murdered.

My point is that I don't know if morality is real. If it is, it's not consistent like a code would dictate. Also, there doesn't seem to be a reason for somethings, like why are humans more concerned about themselves (or children when they have them). Some things there is no answer for, but we can predict events by knowing certain things. We don't need to know the reasons why.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
Nice signature there. In what way exactly are you the Secretary General of the UN? Are you also the VP of the Star Trek Fan Club?

Not a demogamer right? Good, then shut the f*ck up.

(and still better than your avatar btw...)

[GePap]

I see there bieng a particular difference between Patriotism and Nationalism, and I would not labell excess Patriotism as nationalism, but instead as Jingoism.

For me Patriotism is love of country, and the country is generally defined by the political boundaries, ergo love of State. This can be translated into love for a political entity, like a heterogenous Republic or Empire.

Nationalism is love for ones nation, which is defined as a specific group of people joined by comon ethnocultural roots.

The difference would be in saying that you could have for example a French Patriot, who supports and loves the notion of French republicanism, vs. a French nationalist, who loves what he defines as the French "Nation", which generally would exclude members of the French republic who happened to be of a different nation (Arabs, Africans).

Both setiments are born from basic human xenophobia. All humans bond in groups, and people outside the group are seen as a possible danger, since we don't have some shared bond, and in theory then no shared taboo or rule to prevent conflict and possible harm. Both ideas of course take this natural feeling, which humans would genrally extend only to their locality and those people whom they saw regularly in daily life and forms some theoretical bond to strangers one will never meet, but who happen to live under the same vast State or are part of the same vast "nation."

[C0ckney]

Originally posted by VetLegion
Good points. But the reasons Basques won't move could be various.

1) They won't move because they've occupied the territory since before the time of Christ, and they feel strongly connected to it.

2) They won't move because it sends the signal that they are pushovers. They won't be safe on their new island (say if oil is discovered there) if it is known that with some determination you can displace them.

I think the reason for people so strongly hanging on to some territory is more along the lines of 2) than 1).

i would agree that those are important considerations. on the other hand, a better example than a hypothetical island for the basques might be catholics in northern ireland. they could, simply by moving a few miles, have lived with the people who share their national identity, in the country they wanted to be part of. however, because their nationalism is tied to the land they occupy, such a move would never happen.

that is not to say of course that land is the be all and end all of nationalism, but it's always there as a factor.

[Dis]

people long to be in a group I think. I know I do. I hate being an outsider, even though I am.

About the only thing I can call myself is an american. I fit in no where.

maybe I'm a polytubbie as well. You can elect me for hall of fame, and I'd really be happy that I fit in .

anyways it's why gangs exist. It's just a bigger gang.

[Zevico]

I see there bieng a particular difference between Patriotism and Nationalism, and I would not labell excess Patriotism as nationalism, but instead as Jingoism.

For me Patriotism is love of country, and the country is generally defined by the political boundaries, ergo love of State. This can be translated into love for a political entity, like a heterogenous Republic or Empire.

Nationalism is love for ones nation, which is defined as a specific group of people joined by comon ethnocultural roots.

The difference would be in saying that you could have for example a French Patriot, who supports and loves the notion of French republicanism, vs. a French nationalist, who loves what he defines as the French "Nation", which generally would exclude members of the French republic who happened to be of a different nation (Arabs, Africans).

Both setiments are born from basic human xenophobia. All humans bond in groups, and people outside the group are seen as a possible danger, since we don't have some shared bond, and in theory then no shared taboo or rule to prevent conflict and possible harm. Both ideas of course take this natural feeling, which humans would genrally extend only to their locality and those people whom they saw regularly in daily life and forms some theoretical bond to strangers one will never meet, but who happen to live under the same vast State or are part of the same vast "nation."

GePaP FTW