Does Patriotism Make Sense?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Berzerker


Jesus Kid, I was using our civil war as an example. Not the only method of national disintegration. Nations fall apart for all sorts of reasons, but patriotism "devolves" along a certain path as the nation falls apart.

But no it doesn't unless the interests that destroyed the nation are neatly divided into geographical regions. That happened in our civil war, but it doesn't always happen that way. What if the US disentigrated based on eithnic, religious or even class conflict?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Of course its an instinct to survive, but its an instinct we make no apologies for exercising - i.e., we're justified in exercising the right of self defense. Thats what a natural right is, a moral claim to act or think.

That's just assuming that natural rights are the only basis for moral claims. Circular logic.

[Berzerker]

I haven't thought about a reason, because I don't see the point.

Well then, think of a reason

Huh? There are a lot of people who don't even know about so called natural rights. They defend themselves because they are biologically drivin to avoid pain.

Is avoiding pain always justified? We are biologically driven to procreate, does that make rape moral? Natural rights trump instincts, its what separates us from the critters.

But no it doesn't unless the interests that destroyed the nation are neatly divided into geographical regions. That happened in our civil war, but it doesn't always happen that way. What if the US disentigrated based on eithnic, religious or even class conflict?

You criticize my use of the civil war and replace it with a hypothetical? It didn't... Iraq is a good example of how patriotism devolves up the ladder, the nation splinters inspite of those national patriots into regional factions and eventually into tribes and clans within the regions often followed by ethnic and tribal cleansing. The fact patriotism devolved beyond the regional level in some places doesn't mean it wasn't a step in the process of devolution.

[Berzerker]

Ah ok, so that natural right to exist is still something we as people have agreed upon. I kind of took the literal meaning of that so... ok.

Many people dont even recognize the existence of natural rights. Kid here denies their existence but then uses different terminology to essentially say the same thing. A natural right is a moral claim to act or think, a greater moral claim when two or more people are making conflicting moral claims to act or think.

"The DP is merely the extension of a successful act of self-defense."

Extension of a.... now you are being creative But there ain't no natural right GIVE by "the creator of the nature" by which you mean a self conscious thing because if it was just nature that happened to form itself, well there couldn't be any given rights to begin with, so you mean God or similar entity.

Not being creative, if I try to murder you and you kill me in self-defense, you've administered the equivalent of the DP.

So say that you mean a right give by God. So of course a state has the right to "extend their self defense" to override that right, because oh well, we can't just give him the life sentence or isolation if he is dangerous. Right?

Yes, the state exists with our consent to help us preserve our rights. If the state doesn't execute murderers it is rewarding the culprit for being successful. They'd be dead if their victim successfully defended themselves in the first place.

[Zevico]

Is patriotism an based on an 'us and them' mentality? I think so. But the world works on an 'us and them' basis. Patriotism is merely an extension of that mentality from a familial level to a broad social level.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Berzerker


Well then, think of a reason

Hell, idk. Why are avocado pits so big? I guess I say there is no reason.

Is avoiding pain always justified? We are biologically driven to procreate, does that make rape moral? Natural rights trump instincts, its what separates us from the critters.

I didn't say anything about moral justification. You said that people defended themselves because they were excercising natural rights. No, they are not. They are just defending themselves. Your natural rights argument is a justification of self-defense, but it's not the only one, and why do we need justification and morals anyway? I don't care about being seperated from the critters.

You criticize my use of the civil war and replace it with a hypothetical? It didn't... Iraq is a good example of how patriotism devolves up the ladder, the nation splinters inspite of those national patriots into regional factions and eventually into tribes and clans within the regions often followed by ethnic and tribal cleansing. The fact patriotism devolved beyond the regional level in some places doesn't mean it wasn't a step in the process of devolution.

I wouldn't call Iraqis patriotic. I call them religious. They are divided into religious clans. They were already like that before the war. Poor example.

[Kidlicious]

The point is, again, that most people are interested more in themselves than the other groups an Berz list, and that often has nothing to do with their belief in natural rights.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Zevico
Is patriotism an based on an 'us and them' mentality? I think so. But the world works on an 'us and them' basis. Patriotism is merely an extension of that mentality from a familial level to a broad social level.

But it's silly to do that on a geographic basis, to say that all the people in said region are "us," and everyone else is "them."

[Berzerker]

That's just assuming that natural rights are the only basis for moral claims. Circular logic.

You got something better? And it aint circular logic to point out the difference between an instinct and a moral claim to act.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Berzerker


You got something better?

Sure, it's just an instict to survive, and nothing more.

And it aint circular logic to point out the difference between an instinct and a moral claim to act.

You are claiming the two are the same, aren't you? We don't need a moral claim. The moral claim, if there is one, often comes after the event anyway.

[Berzerker]

Is patriotism an based on an 'us and them' mentality? I think so. But the world works on an 'us and them' basis. Patriotism is merely an extension of that mentality from a familial level to a broad social level.

Yup, with the stronger bonds to the family and clan and even the tribe. It weakens quickly beyond that...

Hell, idk. Why are avocado pits so big? I guess I say there is no reason.

Then why would you put it at the top of the list?

I didn't say anything about moral justification. You said that people defended themselves because they were excercising natural rights.

I didn't say they were defending themselves "because" of natural rights, only that their defense is morally justifiable "because" of natural rights.

No, they are not. They are just defending themselves.

Which is... morally justifiable because of the natural right - the moral claim - to exist.

Your natural rights argument is a justification of self-defense, but it's not the only one, and why do we need justification and morals anyway? I don't care about being seperated from the critters.

So you think rape is...what?

[Berzerker]

Sure, it's just an instict to survive, and nothing more.

Is it a morally justifiable instinct? I can think of all kinds of instincts that cant be morally justified, so how can you argue instincts define morality?

You are claiming the two are the same, aren't you? We don't need a moral claim. The moral claim, if there is one, often comes after the event anyway.

No Kid, YOU are claiming instincts define morality. You said self defense is okay because we have the instinct to survive.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Then why would you put it at the top of the list?

It doesn't require a reason.

I didn't say they were defending themselves "because" of natural rights, only that their defense is morally justifiable "because" of natural rights.

So they can put themselves at the top of the list and not believe in natural rights.

So you think rape is...what?

Something that I don't want to happen to me.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Berzerker


Is it a morally justifiable instinct? I can think of all kinds of instincts that cant be morally justified, so how can you argue instincts define morality?

I'm not arguing that at all. You are making the argument about morality. I'm saying that you can be self-interested and you may either have no morality or your morality is defined by that. Not that you have insticts that are defined by morality. It's very different.

No Kid, YOU are claiming instincts define morality. You said self defense is okay because we have the instinct to survive.

I didn't say that at all. I just said that people defend themselves because they have an instinct to do so. I didn't attach any justification.

[Berzerker]

It doesn't require a reason

but it has a reason, else most people wouldn't put it at the top of the list.

So they can put themselves at the top of the list and not believe in natural rights.

Yeah, and whats your point? I never said everyone was required to believe in natural rights. They're at the top of the list because thats where "patriotism" ultimately leads to when the other levels of society break down.

Something that I don't want to happen to me.

Is it moral or not?

I'm not arguing that at all. You are making the argument about morality. I'm saying that you can be self-interested and you may either have no morality or your morality is defined by that. Not that you have insticts that are defined by morality. It's very different.

umkay

I didn't say that at all. I just said that people defend themselves because they have an instinct to do so. I didn't attach any justification.

Yes you did.

That's just assuming that natural rights are the only basis for moral claims.

You did attach a moral claim to self defense... What was your moral claim? The instinct to survive.

And now your position has deteriorated to the point you cant even say rape is immoral.