Does Patriotism Make Sense?

[Kidlicious]

Yes, I would think Berzerker would say natural rights pwns all, all the time.

[Berzerker]

the US had a civil war, the nation split into 2 regions and the threat of further splits along ethnic/religious lines was present. Had the country fallen apart the population would have defined patriotism as loyalty to the tribe... The tribe being the largest, relatively most stable unit. If the tribe is too scattered for effective unity, the local tribe and/or clan becomes the focus of patriotism.

[Berzerker]

Yes, I would think Berzerker would say natural rights pwns all, all the time.

It does, notice who is at the top of my list? But thats apples and oranges... Natural rights and patriotism are different subjects.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Berzerker
the US had a civil war, the nation split into 2 regions and the threat of further splits along ethnic/religious lines was present. Had the country fallen apart the population would have defined patriotism as loyalty to the tribe... The tribe being the largest, relatively most stable unit. If the tribe is too scattered for effective unity, the local tribe and/or clan becomes the focus of patriotism.

You are assuming that nations always fall about because of conflicts between geographical regions.

[Pekka]

Well you're just basically getting familiarity with people on that ladder. It goes all the way back to your own neighbourhood if needed.

Why? I think it's because you like that familiarity, it doesn't mean you even know them, but it feels familiar or the idea of it is at least present, you share something, common location. So that seems to be suddenly making a difference.

What I think is that people just kind of see themselves. The closer they are to me, even in virtual location space time map, we think they're in fact closer to me as a person and since the feeling can be mutual, well... there you go. But in a way you're just looking for yourself.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Berzerker


It does, notice who is at the top of my list? But thats apples and oranges... Natural rights and patriotism are different subjects.

The self is probably at the top of everyone's list. That doesn't mean they believe in natural rights. But I think that people's principles are more important than their nation, but not as important as themselves generally.

[Pekka]

Kid, agreed, and that's usually rare. We might say, well look, lots of examples because of regional disputes. Well.... it's often really about something else than some border or region. It just manifests itself like that, plus we might like to call it a problem of region if we just would like to rape all the girls on the other side of the border. That's war booty. It was a border issue.... well, it kind of was

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Pekka
Well you're just basically getting familiarity with people on that ladder. It goes all the way back to your own neighbourhood if needed.

Why? I think it's because you like that familiarity, it doesn't mean you even know them, but it feels familiar or the idea of it is at least present, you share something, common location. So that seems to be suddenly making a difference.

What I think is that people just kind of see themselves. The closer they are to me, even in virtual location space time map, we think they're in fact closer to me as a person and since the feeling can be mutual, well... there you go. But in a way you're just looking for yourself.

Why do they have to be in your neighborhood. Geographical location doesn't mean that much anymore, especially with internet. I identify with people all over the world, from many different nations more than I do people in my own family and neighborhood.

[Pekka]

kid, I was talking about that ladder, when things get heated. When situation is not normal. That kind of stuff happens.

Human behavior, it doesn't have to make any sense, lots of this stuff makes very little sense, if we consider ourselves rational beings.

[Berzerker]

The self is probably at the top of everyone's list.

For no good reason?

That doesn't mean they believe in natural rights.

Thats nice, and irrelevant. But if someone tries to kill you, you will defend yourself - thats based on your natural right to exist. People who say this natural right doesn't exist gotta explain why they're justifiably exercising it nonetheless when attacked.

[Pekka]

Berz, that statement about natural right to exist is very flawed from many perspectives.

People have an instinct to survive rather. Right has nothing to do with it. A right? Given by who? The state? Well if it's a right, how could you have DP? Yes, they can take a right away, but if it's a NATURAL right, well that's a bit problematic.

The two don't connect. People have survival instinct. Nobody has some kind of weird natural right to exist, who gives this right to you? the nature? Is that some kind of self conscious entity?

Cut the weed Berz.

[Berzerker]

You are assuming that nations always fall about because of conflicts between geographical regions.

Jesus Kid, I was using our civil war as an example. Not the only method of national disintegration. Nations fall apart for all sorts of reasons, but patriotism "devolves" along a certain path as the nation falls apart.

[Berzerker]

Berz, that statement about natural right to exist is very flawed from many perspectives.

People have an instinct to survive rather. Right has nothing to do with it. A right?

Of course its an instinct to survive, but its an instinct we make no apologies for exercising - i.e., we're justified in exercising the right of self defense. Thats what a natural right is, a moral claim to act or think.

Given by who? The state? Well if it's a right, how could you have DP? Yes, they can take a right away, but if it's a NATURAL right, well that's a bit problematic.

Natural rights are given by nature's creator, or that which is responsible for existence. The DP doesn't violate any natural right, if I try to murder you and you kill me in self-defense, I gave away my right to exist by trying to take yours away. The DP is merely the extension of a successful act of self-defense. If I'm successful in my attempt to murder you, not killing me rewards me for my success.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Berzerker


For no good reason?

I haven't thought about a reason, because I don't see the point.

Thats nice, and irrelevant. But if someone tries to kill you, you will defend yourself - thats based on your natural right to exist. People who say this natural right doesn't exist gotta explain why they're justifiably exercising it nonetheless when attacked.

Huh? There are a lot of people who don't even know about so called natural rights. They defend themselves because they are biologically drivin to avoid pain.

[Pekka]

Ah ok, so that natural right to exist is still something we as people have agreed upon. I kind of took the literal meaning of that so... ok.

"The DP is merely the extension of a successful act of self-defense."

Extension of a.... now you are being creative But there ain't no natural right GIVE by "the creator of the nature" by which you mean a self conscious thing because if it was just nature that happened to form itself, well there couldn't be any given rights to begin with, so you mean God or similar entity. So say that you mean a right give by God. So of course a state has the right to "extend their self defense" to override that right, because oh well, we can't just give him the life sentence or isolation if he is dangerous. Right? You have to become very creative with this natural right thing riiight about now if you want to have a consistent chain of thought.