Does Patriotism Make Sense?

[Blake]

Hmmm interesting, the dictionary definitions are clear (and this is a topic I've covered before......)

Patriotism (only one)
- Love of and devotion to one's country.

Nationalism (some of many)
- excessive Patriotism
- the policy or doctrine of asserting the interests of one's own nation, viewed as separate from the interests of other nations or the common interests of all nations.


I could say I'm a Patriotic New Zealander, since I love my country, I'm devoted to my country (don't want to leave) and I support my countries ideology for the most part - militarily pacifist, politically proactive.

I couldn't say I'm Nationalist, because I don't want New Zealand to prosper MORE than other countries and certainly not at the expense of other countries.

The thing is, it's better to love your country than to not love your country, that makes the country stronger than if the populace is apathetic. In fact as a rule it's always better to love than not love, thus Patriotism is a good thing. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting prosperity.

I don't see why Patriotism necessarily has to be combined with the idea of national superiority - it often is, but in those cases, I always think it's more Nationalism than Patriotism.

I also suspect that in USA, Patriotism and Nationalism are basically synonyms.

Okay final point. I'm a patriotic New Zealander, but I think New Zealand is a genuinely good country with sane policies. If I was in USA I sure wouldn't be patriotic to the administration.
Maybe the summary is that, in countries with insane leadership, patriotism is insane, in sane countries, patriotism is sane. This would certainly explain why in an imperialistic country Patriotism and Nationalism become one and the same.

[Aeson]

Originally posted by Blake
Maybe the summary is that, in countries with insane leadership, patriotism is insane, in sane countries, patriotism is sane. This would certainly explain why in an imperialistic country Patriotism and Nationalism become one and the same.

It follows that it's not your country you should devote yourself to.

[Blake]

It follows that it's not your country you should devote yourself to.

Ah, hmm. No, that isn't true.

All people SHOULD want prosperity for where they live, I mean, what else?

Really, true patriotism should involve keeping the leadership honest, when doing so is required.

It's nationalism which is blind support for the leadership.

[BeBMan]

Humanism > Patriotism

FACT!

[Blake]

Speciests

FACT!

[BeBMan]

My FACT > Your FACT! (cause I say so)

FACT!

[Pekka]

Critical thinking+Science > Moral codes of the world.

You have to prove that natural rights exist. Oh, it's really just an abstract? WEll, science has shown that humans have survival instinct.

Period. End of the moral claims as well as God giving you the right to fight back. You can believe that if you want, but it's nothing more than belief and you're just mkaing this stuff up. I'd rather stick with what WE KNOW.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Pekka
Critical thinking+Science > Moral codes of the world.

These two sides aren't per se mutually exclusive, wrong dichotomy I'd say.

[East Street Trader]

Patriotism and allegiance to a nation state are the things which most threaten us as a species.

When the ascent of man was just beginning and before we gained such control over our environment, strong loyalty to a group allowed us to co-operate together better. Which was a powerful aid to survival and helped us to prosper.

But at that time we were in competition for scarce resources with other groups and patriotism aided war as well as more peaceful kinds of co-operation.

Progressively we have learned to co-operate in larger and larger groups. Initially loyalty was owed to the family, then the tribe and, eventually, to the nation state.

The fruits of cohesion and co-operation involving hundreds of millions of people can be seen everywhere - in our cities, industries, transport systems, scientific advance, medicine, etc., etc., etc..

But also in war.

Wars between nation states have become progressively more destructive. The Great War was hugely more destructive than anything which had gone before and the Second World War took destructive capacity another huge leap forward. The next war between major states may well end in the destruction of life on the planet.

We simply no longer need patriotic loyalty to any group smaller than the race. Indeed patriotism when directed to smaller groups - state or religion say - can pretty plainly be seen to be destructive. The situation in Iraq currently illustrates that. And the challenges we now face demand world wide co-operation. Protection of the health of the planet, the conquest of space, curbing or eliminating AIDS - all these things require a pan planet perspective.

Patriotism is something that we need to out grow.

[Kidlicious]

I have to skip some of your responses. They just don't make sense.

Originally posted by Berzerker
Is it moral or not?

Everything that I don't want to happen to me is immoral. Go figure. Some people want bad things to happen to them because of their religion or their patriotism or some crap like that, but since I don't have those things it follows that everything that I don't want to happen to me I consider immoral.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Blake
All people SHOULD want prosperity for where they live, I mean, what else?

The problem with that is still that there doesn't seem to be any reason to confine that to a geographical region.

[Arrian]

I also suspect that in USA, Patriotism and Nationalism are basically synonyms

Eh. To some, perhaps. Not to all. The US is a big place with lotsa people (compared to NZ).

Anyway, it all comes down to the "us vs. them" thing. Berz's ranking seems about right to me.

As for how to break out of "us vs. them" ... I wonder if it's so hardcoded as to be unavoidable? Sure, you can try, via education, to soften it...

-Arrian

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Arrian
As for how to break out of "us vs. them" ... I wonder if it's so hardcoded as to be unavoidable? Sure, you can try, via education, to soften it...

-Arrian

You can get rid of patriotism by getting rid of the nation.

[Arrian]

Which just gets you back to tribalism. Same basic phenomenon, different grouping (smaller).

Whooptie ****ing do.

-Arrian

[Aeson]

Originally posted by Blake
Ah, hmm. No, that isn't true.

All people SHOULD want prosperity for where they live, I mean, what else?

That isn't devotion...

Really, true patriotism should involve keeping the leadership honest, when doing so is required.

It's nationalism which is blind support for the leadership.

If you are devoted to your country, and the direction of your country is a variable thing... you've set yourself up to be devoted to the wrong thing.

Devote yourself to some higher ideals. Not some arbitrary lines on a map.