Are you afraid to die?

[Blake]

Ooh have to say something about faith and the way I use the word.

Something which is KNOWN to me, may be called FAITH.

I have PERSONAL evidence of rebirth, to me it is NOT faith because there is UNDENIABLE EVIDENCE. However, this evidence can not be communicated to YOU, anything I say I could just be talking out my ***. Since I cannot prove it to you, to you, I describe it as faith (I take a non self-centric perspective).

Someone who believes in God may well have PERSONAL evidence of God, I acknowledge that to them it is not faith, even though to me it is faith since that proof cannot be communicated to me.

I think this is a distinctly different kind of faith.

And the reason it is important is because of perspective/perception. Perception is critical, I assure you that YOU DO NOT PERCEIVE THE WORLD AS IT "ACTUALLY" IS. You perceive some approximation of the world, have you ever had an insight when suddenly you perceive the world in a new way, more clearly?
(Also as exhibit A: Colorblind people)

There's a kind of core which everyone pretty much agrees on. Like gravity, and the world being round, and much of science, but not all of it - like the science of evolution is disputed. That's a kind of overlapping of perception which becomes "Truth" of some kind.

Perception is knowing - seeing is believing. That's as good as you get, if you deny this premise then you are doomed to nihilism where you don't believe in reality.

Since I know that people do not perceive identically, I give some leeway in people "knowing" different things about the world. This knowing-which-is-not-always-mutual gets labeled as "faith" even though in some cases it may actually be truth, and in any case is personal truth.

And I DON'T believe the overlap is the whole of reality and everything outside the overlap is delusion, that is very something-centric (I don't know what exactly) and also semi-absurd (like in a way where species have not-evolved and have been not-created).

[Nostromo]

People who enjoy life are not in a hurry to die. OTOH, people who had a awful time on Earth or don't enjoy life don't mind dying very much. My grandma, for example, is 90, she's still in fairly good health for her age, but she's bored and she says she's ready to go.

Personnally, I'm not afraid to die per se. I'm more afraid of not living life to the fullest. I have one shot and I don't want to miss it. Hell, I could die tomorrow...

[Nostromo]

Religious faith is a two-edged sword. On the one hand, believing in an afterlife it may help you accept death. But you absolutely don't know what waits for you on the other side. In that sense, even religious people should fear death. Hell, this should give them a reason to fear death even more than us atheists.

[Ben Kenobi]

Perception is knowing - seeing is believing. That's as good as you get, if you deny this premise then you are doomed to nihilism where you don't believe in reality.

Truth is not limited to sensory information. There are things we know are true even if we have not had any personal experience of them. For example, I know New York exists, but I have not lived there. I can look up on a map and know how to get places without having travelled there, despite the fact that the maps are just pixels on a screen.

[Ben Kenobi]

Religious faith is a two-edged sword. On the one hand, believing in an afterlife it may help you accept death. But you absolutely don't know what waits for you on the other side. In that sense, even religious people should fear death. Hell, this should give them a reason to fear death even more than us atheists

Not really. We look forward to heaven and what awaits us there. I have to agree with Mrs. T, this world is not much fun. It is full of pain and suffering and hurt. Heaven is not like that and gives us something to look forward to.

Yes, hell is not fun, which is why we have to believe in God and confess our sins to him, so that we may be saved.

[Blake]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Truth is not limited to sensory information. There are things we know are true even if we have not had any personal experience of them. For example, I know New York exists, but I have not lived there. I can look up on a map and know how to get places without having travelled there, despite the fact that the maps are just pixels on a screen.

And what exactly are you using to "look it up" with?

(Once it's invented "Mind machine interface" can be the 7th sense )

[Nostromo]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Not really. We look forward to heaven and what awaits us there. I have to agree with Mrs. T, this world is not much fun. It is full of pain and suffering and hurt. Heaven is not like that and gives us something to look forward to.

Yes, hell is not fun, which is why we have to believe in God and confess our sins to him, so that we may be saved.

You mean that even Hitler or Stalin could go to Heaven? They only had to confess their sins? That always seemed silly to me. So Hell is just there for people who forgot to confess their sins? So, basically, there's one commandment in Christianity: "anything goes, just don't forget to confess your sins!"

EDIT: To be honest, it all made some sense after I saw 'Dead Man Walking'. But, if I understand it correctly, you not only have to confess your sins, you also have to repent. And that's the most important and the hardest part. To be genuinely repentant and not just say "I'm sorry!", but not meaning it. To be honest, if I was a Christian I would be extremely nervous of forgetting a sin or not being able to repent.

[Blake]

I would think that belief in Heaven/Hell would have to be weak faith, since I don't think there could be any "personal proof" of these... places, concepts? I don't know.

Hell is especially is extremely dodgy.

Heaven can be like "returning to god", that's the only form which really makes sense... heaven, as as eternity of pleasure... everyone knows you grow numb to pleasure.

But as for hell. Personally I think that a god who would condemn people to hell, is not the kind of god I want to associate with. So if Hell does exist, send me there you big fat assface*! My compassion DEMANDS I be with the ones who are suffering! How could anyone be happy in heaven knowing there's billions of people suffering eternal torment? Ugh.

* a god who insults easily is also the kind of god I don't want to associate with.

[Bkeela]

I'm not scared of dying, but I'm scared of contracting a terminal illness.

What I dread is going to the doctor feeling relatively healthy and discovering I have skin cancer and only six to twelve months to live.

However, I was recently very sick with the flu. After a week of very little sleep due to being unable to stop coughing, I actually wished I were dead. The will to live left me - life became a bleak, tedious horror. I can imagine one would feel infinitely worse lying in a hospital in the final stages of cancer, or pneumonia - in such a situation I think I'd be praying for death. Death would be your very best friend. In such a situation I wouldn't fear death at all.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by nostromo
An optimist, good. I just hope you're right

Not terribly optimistic given the statistics, but the sentiment is appreciated.

[Nikolai]

Originally posted by nostromo


You mean that even Hitler or Stalin could go to Heaven? They only had to confess their sins? That always seemed silly to me. So Hell is just there for people who forgot to confess their sins? So, basically, there's one commandment in Christianity: "anything goes, just don't forget to confess your sins!"

EDIT: To be honest, it all made some sense after I saw 'Dead Man Walking'. But, if I understand it correctly, you not only have to confess your sins, you also have to repent. And that's the most important and the hardest part. To be genuinely repentant and not just say "I'm sorry!", but not meaning it. To be honest, if I was a Christian I would be extremely nervous of forgetting a sin or not being able to repent.

Everyone can come to heaven, but as you say, not only by confessing. You also have to repent. But you know what? Even when I feel like I "don't repent enough", I can tell that to God and he'll help me repent. He's done that for me before.

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by Blake
Not quite.

Your mistake is in equating Sense with Reason.

Things can make sense, without being entirely reasonizable. And it's possible for reason to make no sense.

In Buddhism there is the important concept of The Middle Way. It's to not declare that something is the one right thing. It's equally wrong to declare that "Faith justify anything" as it is to declare that "Reason can justify anything".

Example:
(Inspired by the koan "If they are our brothers, how come we can't eat them?")

I decide to eat my brother because I believe that I can steal his spiritual mojo - A decision made on faith.
I decide to eat my brother because I am hungry. A decision made on reason.

Reason can be every bit as insane as faith! And the problem is in taking them - both faith, and reason, to extremes. I am not a Buddhist, but I do pursue The Middle Way. That is how I make my decisions, to not fall victim to delusions caused by extreme forms of thinking.

Here's a question which defies logical thinking:
What should my purpose in life be?
or
How should I measure the success of my life?

Take the answer to that, and find the logic behind that answer. I daresay you wont find a logical source which also makes sense.

Your posts previous to this one made me think you were a Buddhist. Here you say you are not, but you obviously take influences from Buddhism. Out of pure curiosity, what would you say sets you apart from Buddhism?

[MOBIUS]

No, you won't even notice you're dead...

Religious people on the other hand will be wracked with thinking 'was I good enough?', 'did I pick the right religion' etc...

[Nikolai]

Actually Mobius, according to the christian faith(which I guess is what you primarily refer to), none of us are good enough. Salvation is a gift given to any who accepts it. I can only speak for myself, but I am not not afraid I have chosen the wrong religion, I have heard and experienced too much for that. I still feel unworthy/not good enough, but as I said, I am just that. Thankfully we have a loving God.

But as someone said earlier in the thread, faith cannot be explained. For me, my faith is fully logical and sensible, but I can't prove it for anyone. Faith can't be proven.

[Arrian]

Hmm.

I'm not afraid of being dead, since I don't believe in an afterlife. Nothing to look forward to, nothing to fear.

I don't want to die, as I enjoy life. I also don't particularly like the idea of dying painfully. Particularly via some slow illness (cancer or somesuch). Ugh.

So, while I don't think about it much, sure I'm afraid of dying - dying slowly/painfully.

-Arrian